Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
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05-02-2016, 09:13 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(05-02-2016 06:15 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(05-02-2016 06:07 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I learned back in 1971 to not discount a person's fighting ability based solely on their gender.

Anybody get a picture of her kicking your ass????

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05-02-2016, 09:26 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(05-02-2016 07:58 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Ethical arguments aside, there are (or at least were) legitimate reasons to the draft. It's just that most of them are obsolete now.

It's a profession with a lot of unique skill sets. You can't just grab an inexperienced person with no interest and make them a good soldier any more than you can grab someone who hates computers and turn them into a programmer in a few weeks.

What "skill set" does "KP" duty utilize ?

There are all kinds of non-combat "support" functions where men and women who could be doing something more intensly productive to the mission(s) get wasted on "clerk" stuff.

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05-02-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(05-02-2016 09:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-02-2016 07:58 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Ethical arguments aside, there are (or at least were) legitimate reasons to the draft. It's just that most of them are obsolete now.

It's a profession with a lot of unique skill sets. You can't just grab an inexperienced person with no interest and make them a good soldier any more than you can grab someone who hates computers and turn them into a programmer in a few weeks.

What "skill set" does "KP" duty utilize ?

There are all kinds of non-combat "support" functions where men and women who could be doing something more intensly productive to the mission(s) get wasted on "clerk" stuff.

For sure, but stuff like KP isn't an occupation, it's something (mostly) privates do while they're learning their occupations. As for the actual support occupations, whether it be cook or supply, they tend to be filled by volunteers as people make moves to avoid combat. When a war significant enough to use the draft breaks out, the infantry slots are the ones that need a continuing supply of replacements.

That's also where the change was made that lead to the discussion. Women in the military is nothing new. Women in line units are, and that's what lead to the renewed discussion on the draft, and my perhaps erroneous assumption that it's primarily combat roles we're talking about.

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05-02-2016, 11:14 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(02-02-2016 07:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Males in the US must register on their 18th birthday, (even though there is no active draft), for the Selective Service System. If they don't, they can't get student loans, and risk all kinds of other Federally related consequences, (employment etc). Today some generals told congress women should have the same requirement.

What think ye ?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/02/...draft.html

First of all, I disagree with the draft. We have plenty of people who sign up willingly, and if people are refusing the fight in a war, then the government needs to recognize that the people don't support the war that's being fought.

With that said, I would have been more than happy to register on my 18th birthday to help in whatever way I'm capable of helping. But let it be known that I have no upper body strength what-so-ever. My arms get tired just hauling loaded laundry baskets around.... I will not be doing a single chin up and nor will I be lifting heavy weapons to fire them.
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05-02-2016, 11:27 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 06:56 AM by Chas.)
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(05-02-2016 11:14 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(02-02-2016 07:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Males in the US must register on their 18th birthday, (even though there is no active draft), for the Selective Service System. If they don't, they can't get student loans, and risk all kinds of other Federally related consequences, (employment etc). Today some generals told congress women should have the same requirement.

What think ye ?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/02/...draft.html

First of all, I disagree with the draft. We have plenty of people who sign up willingly, and if people are refusing the fight in a war, then the government needs to recognize that the people don't support the war that's being fought.

With that said, I would have been more than happy to register on my 18th birthday to help in whatever way I'm capable of helping. But let it be known that I have no upper body strength what-so-ever. My arms get tired just hauling loaded laundry baskets around.... I will not be doing a single chin up and nor will I be lifting heavy weapons to fire them.

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05-02-2016, 11:28 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
No. Selective Service should be done away with entirely instead.
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05-02-2016, 02:08 PM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
Selective Service should be struck down on Thirteenth Amendment grounds.
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05-02-2016, 11:23 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 09:47 AM by I Am.)
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(05-02-2016 07:52 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(05-02-2016 07:38 AM)I Am Wrote:  Nope. But forced service is slavery, and pursuing gender equality in a human rights violation seems odd to me. As a protest, as a tactic to work against the draft generally I would be okay with it.


Slavery is far too strong of a word I think. You can decide not to register, but then you simply don't get access to federal loans for higher education or access to federal government jobs. But if neither of those things are enticing trade-offs for you, then don't register. Likewise, the draft is supposed to be a last resort during a war. At least that's how the system is intended to work, a deceleration of war would require authorization by Congress, a body of politicians obstinately there to represent the people, including those eligible to be drafted. Also anyone old enough to be drafted is old enough to vote, including for said Congress members who would vote on a deceleration of war or instituting a draft.

You bring up some good arguments. I'd like to answer the issue of what is and isn't slavery, and first set aside some other points more briefly.

First, congress hasn't declared war in almost 75 years, and has conducted military force exercises in foreign countries almost the entire time since then. I personally assume that formal war declarations are a thing of the past. Also, and I understand that this is arguable, it seems to me that most congressfolk represent their own reelection campaigns first, then their donors, and somewhere sixth or seventh on the list is an ordinary constituent. Even in the case of an honest hardworking house member, the voting process isn't going to change an issued draft order, even though fear of backlash at the polls may delay going down that road. So, most of how that system is supposed to work seems unlikely to help an unwilling draftee.

Slavery is a slippery thing to define. Many people imagine unpaid agricultural labor when they think of slavery. Others think of the buying and selling of people - slave markets. These aren't all of it though because a slave who is kidnapped and forced to row a galley or tend a kitchen is neither in a field, nor bought or sold. One dictionary says a slave is "legally owned" and works "without pay" but again these aren't really necessary features - a person forced into labor against the law is still enslaved, and someone who receives inadequate cash in lieu of room and board provided is "paid" in such a way to keep them within the control of the owner. Southern American slavers compared their own slavery practices favorably to the "wage slaves" of the north who were paid so little they could barely keep themsleves housed and fed. Deplorable as both those situations were, I actually think they had a point. Southern slavery was often less inhumane than the living and working conditions of many northern textile and factory workers. So I don't have a hard and fast rule that defines what is and isn't slavery, but I think I can list two of its consistent features.

- Nonconsensual, that is, forced with violence or threats or coerced in some other way.
- Work, whether it's breaking rocks or peeling grapes or whatever.

Conscription has both these features. If I had the graphic arts skills I'd draw a Venn diagram of two overlapping circles, one labeled "work" and one labeled "nonconsensual activity", with "slavery" and "conscription" sharing the overlapping space. For me, that similarity is close enough to consider the words almost synonymous.

Not everyone will agree though, and that's fine. I wonder if you would describe a similar Venn diagram for me, with a third circle that creates a distinction between "slavery" and "conscription". What label would the third circle have? Or, can you show the difference some other way?

Edit: I always forget something. :-) I did register, and I did get the loans and the .gov job. Debt slavery is another related category, and goes along with indentured service. Most 17th century American indentures were for 7 years. My student loan public service forgiveness program is for ten years. Not sure exactly where on the slavery spectrum these fall.
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06-02-2016, 12:55 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(05-02-2016 11:14 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(02-02-2016 07:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Males in the US must register on their 18th birthday, (even though there is no active draft), for the Selective Service System. If they don't, they can't get student loans, and risk all kinds of other Federally related consequences, (employment etc). Today some generals told congress women should have the same requirement.

What think ye ?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/02/...draft.html

First of all, I disagree with the draft. We have plenty of people who sign up willingly, and if people are refusing the fight in a war, then the government needs to recognize that the people don't support the war that's being fought.

With that said, I would have been more than happy to register on my 18th birthday to help in whatever way I'm capable of helping. But let it be known that I have no upper body strength what-so-ever. My arms get tired just hauling loaded laundry baskets around.... I will not be doing a single chin up and nor will I be lifting heavy weapons to fire them.

But you could be a drone pilot, how cool would that be.

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06-02-2016, 01:20 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
Fuck the Selective Service.

But yeh, women should be included in that realm since we have it. Now putting a woman like me into battle? I'm with Aliza on this one (never done a chin-up in my entire life, despite working out)...I'm not strong enough to hold up an AR-15 or whatever it is they carry to shoot with an semblance of accuracy, much less add on a heavy backpack and expect me to keep up with the men. I would be more of a liability than a help. Think yakherder would trust me to have his back? Furthermore, I don't really like the idea of getting brutally gang raped by the opposition in addition to torture should I get captured by the opposition. Think they'd provide abortions should they choose not to decpaitate me after?

Put women to work in the hospitals, the office, doing mechanical work fixing planes and shit. But the "battlefield"? The women capable of keeping up in an infantry position are few and far between. Do they exist? Sure. And should they volunteer, have at it should they pass the physical requirements. But assigning my 5'5" 110lb frame to go kick down doors in the name of gender equality is laughable. There is nothing equal about my body and a man's, even at the same height. Hell, at work I've nearly had my arm and hands broken by frail men in their nineties. How do you think I'd fare in hand to hand combat?

I would propose that the casualty rate for women would be MUCH higher for women (as well as their male counterparts close by) - we'd practically be sitting ducks.

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