"Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
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06-09-2015, 03:10 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
(06-09-2015 03:04 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 02:57 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  To say that proof is only legitimate through our limited scientific understanding is just nonsense.

Incorrect. Science provides a methodology that is useful through repetition.

For encounters with those infused with Holy Spirit, I was never more inclined to believe in their god; however they were more inclined to believe in my Gwynnies. See the problem there?
No didn't really get that to be honest. Uhm... Science is great. Speculation using tested theories is cool. Taking said educated guesses as the sole possibility when other possibilities and further explanation fold right in with it is not using your thinking cap. We have explained away exactly what God has allowed. Unfortunately, most of it seems to have been in vain.
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06-09-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
(06-09-2015 03:10 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Uhm... Science is great. Speculation using tested theories is cool. Taking said educated guesses as the sole possibility when other possibilities and further explanation fold right in with it is not using your thinking cap.

It's a good thing that isn't what science does, then.

You really ought to learn what something is before you attempt to dismiss it.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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06-09-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
(06-09-2015 03:10 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 03:04 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Incorrect. Science provides a methodology that is useful through repetition.

For encounters with those infused with Holy Spirit, I was never more inclined to believe in their god; however they were more inclined to believe in my Gwynnies. See the problem there?
No didn't really get that to be honest.

When evaluating claims based upon personal experience, the more charismatic presenter wins. Me and my Gwynnies are about eight zillion and zero. Logically that still does not validate Gwyneth as god. Undecided

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06-09-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
Unbeliever,

The only wishing I do is for you, for May way is set in stone.

Like I said my proof is mine. Evedintly you want to stick with yours that fits inside mine so maybe you'll be ok.

No wiesel shit buddy, can you literally take a lightning bolt which is fn plasma and make it do what you want without it converting to a different energy such as electric. How about wind? Can you control a gust of wind that you did not create without literally changing it? Keep in mind that wind is but a collection of atoms on a natural direction that is literally changed from its path no matter how you attempt to intervien.
Thought isn't physical, it causes change in the physical, not the other way around. Emotions cause chemical reactions or displacements, not visa versa.

Breaking opened a tv and figuring out how to put it back together doesn't make you the creator of the tv. Chances are you wouldn't have the resourses to build another one like it. Even in such cases where you can create another one; the implications of such with limited understanding of all processes as a whole could prove dangerous.

No offence but morality , and or the golden rule, and or your conscience is not an abstract consept unless you are really in the dark.

Your wilfull lack of understanding is due to the selfish, negative, manipulative, negative force that resides in those not rightly guided, or more so the ones of them who are willfully so.

How's that for word salad you wilfully ignorant individual?
What's your favorite dressing, Italian?
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06-09-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
(06-09-2015 02:57 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Proof doesn't have to be physical or disectable, or capturable.

It does for it to mean anything.

Quote:Tell me; can you literally capture and use a bolt of lightning, or a gust of wind without it literally changing form? In some ways lightning, wind, and thought, and mortality are not physical. For you to attempt to explain them away as such is silly and irresponsable. For you to extend this off process as far as to say anything isn't possible through the unexplainable circumstances that we totally understand is fn ludacris.

You have zero understanding of science. Lighting and wind have effects that can be tested and measured. Thought can also be detected through electrical and chemical changes in the brain; that we haven't yet learned to "read" thoughts via those measurements doesn't mean that we can't demonstrate the connection. There is repeatedly testable, falsifiable evidence for all of them. Even mortality involves a demonstrable change in the physical organization of the body.

Your claims, on the other hand, are just vacuous.

Quote:However, can you discern and even apply the energy from said events effectivly proving energy or force, or existence?

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Nobody is disputing that energy or force or existence exists.

Quote:Does it not back up to atmosphere which backs to the earth who's atmosphere is indeed quite rare?

Does what not back up to the atmosphere? What does any of that even mean? You are too scientifically illiterate to even hold a conversation. Regardless, you do not know how rare Earth's atmosphere is. It is unique in our solar system but that isn't saying much.

Quote: Let's go further back still in evolution as a whole or existince that was created over time by God.

Unfortunately there isn't any evidence for any god in the evolutionary process.

Quote:Backing up any further leads directly into mass and gravity. Everything that happened in order for us to happen is based on infinite possibility,

Prove that. How exactly do you know how many possibilities there are? You are also engaging in fallacious reasoning that we were an intended outcome. Looking back it is certainly incredibly unlikely that we would be here but that is reasoning backwards. The odds that any individual will win the lottery are minuscule but the odds that somebody will are virtually certain.

Quote: but also very unique significance. We are a product of the Universe, and a very rare, potent, uniquely free, opportunity it is.

Significant to us, yes. Significant to the universe? There's simply no evidence of that.

Quote:We were poised to set here on this day roughly 6billion years ago. Give or take for cooling/ slowing and dialation/speeding of expansion at an eventual exponential rate. That's pretty friggin miraculous to me.

There is just no reason to believe that we were ever "poised" to be be here. We can consider ourselves lucky but to jump from that to any conclusion that we were meant to be requires evidence that you don't have.

Quote:Maybe complete unison of completely different religions that secretely to them selves don't know they are the same is a coincidence to you, or lies to another, but to me it is plain as day.

What is plain is that you have made your own theology for yourself just like many have done before you. From what little I've seen, I don't think your actual beliefs are all that bad but that is not the point. The point is that you have no evidence to support your claims. You could be 100% right and there'd still be no rational reason to believe any of it because you are just making up whatever feels good to you personally. Bully for you. Bullshit for the rest of us.

Quote:For my very piece in this puzzle and others to be shown to me through scripture and Christ under God may sound kuckoo to you. But I have played in the fire for years, and have rested with naught in the past. As a result I can easily discern Good from bad.

Word salad. "played in the fire"? "rested with naught"?

We all have our subjective moral guidelines and can discern what we think is good from what we think is bad although not everything is black and white. Unless you have a way to reliably distinguish whether something is good or bad and you can communicate that protocol to others you are no better than anybody else in that area.

Quote:Many things will not simply unfold because it is your will. That doesn't make these things impossible. Only inobservable to a third party in some cases. I literally have undeniable proof from one perspective. And it is and will be called complete Bs from some, if not most for a point. For some this point will go until their end.

If you had undeniable proof then you could present it and I'd have to accept it. You refuse to understand that the strength of your convictions about your belief is not and can not be proof for anybody, including yourself. Either you have proof which you can demonstrate or you do not have proof.

Quote:To say that proof is only legitimate through our limited scientific understanding is just nonsense.

I really do feel sorry for you. You are so wrapped up in your fantasy world that you have lost touch with reality. If something isn't objectively demonstrable then there is no reason to accept it as real.

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06-09-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
Responding to the topic of the thread, what I would do is simply say, "You know I don't believe in that stuff, but if you like, I'll pray with you."

In fact, I once had a discussion with a Pentecostal preacher. I told him that when I was younger I tried the following experiment: I said "God, if you're there, give me belief." I cannot claim the experiment was scientific, but it was the best I could do. I did not get belief. I did not say, "If you exist, make me believe," because that would have been more like a challenge. Rather, I put it as a request, in the frame of mind (which if there'd been a god he'd have known) that if there really is a god, I want to believe. I just don't want to believe in something that does not exist. So, my "prayer" was a request, a plea.

The Pentecostal preacher told me that my problem was that I addressed my prayer to god. He said that you can come to god only through Jesus, so you have to pray to him. I asked him to tell me an appropriate form for the prayer, and he agreed that "Jesus, if you exist, grant me belief," would do. For a week I said that prayer several times a day, whenever it occurred to me to do so. Fundies often accuse us atheists of not wanting to believe. Well, I honestly want to believe in what is true. And if Jesus or god was listening, they'd have known that I want the truth. Science is above all the search for truth, where religion is merely unfounded belief. Anyway, I kept it up for a week, and I did not get belief. The preacher afterward accused me of not really wanting to believe and ended up telling me I'm going to hell because I believe in evolution. He was very clear on this point: He said that maybe god could forgive me for not believing in him, but that god could never forgive me for believing in evolution.

What kind of doofus preacher believes in god but is that certain that god could never forgive this or that bit of heresy. (Heresy is defined as "wrong belief," and according to the preacher, evolution is a wrong belief, but apparently a worse wrong belief than even atheism.)

So I'm willing to say the words of prayer if it will make someone I care about happy. I will not lie to them about my actual belief. I will not pretend to be sincerely addressing myself to a god unless it's in a context such as the above. On other occasions, quite a few, really, I've sat respectfully and quietly while others prayed. It's common among groups of believers that one says a prayer out loud while others remain silent. And they're usually satisfied if you simply remain silent, perhaps while holding hands. I've got no problem holding hands.

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06-09-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
(06-09-2015 03:36 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Like I said my proof is mine.

And, as I said, your proof is not proof.

(06-09-2015 03:36 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No wiesel shit buddy, can you literally take a lightning bolt which is fn plasma and make it do what you want without it converting to a different energy such as electric.

Lightning is electric. And yes, this remains pointless weasel-phrasing meant to dismiss what we know on no grounds other than that it doesn't meet your completely arbitrary and pointless standards.

It's not particularly compelling.

(06-09-2015 03:36 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Thought isn't physical, it causes change in the physical, not the other way around. Emotions cause chemical reactions or displacements, not visa versa.

This goes against literally every piece of evidence we have regarding the brain and emotions. The entire field of neuroscience stands against you, not to mention the entirety of medical psychiatry.

You are, flatly, wrong.

(06-09-2015 03:36 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Breaking opened a tv and figuring out how to put it back together doesn't make you the creator of the tv. Chances are you wouldn't have the resourses to build another one like it. Even in such cases where you can create another one; the implications of such with limited understanding of all processes as a whole could prove dangerous.

And none of this matters at all.

(06-09-2015 03:36 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No offence but morality , and or the golden rule, and or your conscience is not an abstract consept unless you are really in the dark.

It absolutely is.

(06-09-2015 03:36 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Your wilfull lack of understanding is due to the selfish, negative, manipulative, negative force that resides in those not rightly guided, or more so the ones of them who are willfully so.

How's that for word salad you wilfully ignorant individual?

Rather poor, actually. It's coherent, so it's not really word salad.

I mean, it's still dumb. Extremely dumb. And entirely wrong. But it isn't word salad.

(06-09-2015 03:36 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  What's your favorite dressing, Italian?

Yes, actually.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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06-09-2015, 03:56 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
(06-09-2015 03:43 PM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Responding to the topic of the thread,

You trying to un-derail this travesty or something?
Consider

I've never been in the situation described so I'm not sure what I would do. I don't think I would actually pray. I would hold the person, tell them how much they meant to me, thank them for everything, tell them I hoped their pain would end, and I'd be quiet and listen if they wanted to pray. It certainly would not be the time to try to change their minds or argue or add to their distress in any way. I'll leave that to the theists.

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06-09-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
(06-09-2015 03:56 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 03:43 PM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Responding to the topic of the thread,

You trying to un-derail this travesty or something?
Consider

Perish the thought.

Excuse me, do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior?
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06-09-2015, 04:38 PM
RE: "Should you push aside your atheism for a few moments?"
Unbeliever,

Who can you discern the lagitimacy of what I consider indisputable to self? You can't. It's like using everyone else's perspective to refuse mine even though their general perspective folds right into mine.

Lightning is plasma and has little to do with my initial question. Plasma isn't traditionally physical though.


As far as emotion, thought, and chemical reactions in the brain are conserned;
There is a lot of evidence to show that emotion precedes cognition too, but emotions occur in response to stimuli. So it is exposure to emotionally valenced stimuli that causes chemical reactions, from the most basic; activity in the reticular activating system, to higher limbic areas e.g. the left amygdala, the medial thalamus the anterior cingulate gyrus and so-on and activity in these areas results in emotion, which in turn influences higher, more volitional cognitive processes.

All this happens very quickly. Exposure to emotionally valenced information has been shown to alter people's emotional-motivational state within 250 milliseconds. It has also been shown to happen outside people's conscious awareness as the response occurs even though the stimulus exposure time (40 milliseconds) is less than a person can consciously register (see for example Chen, M., & Bargh, J. A. (1999). Consequences of automatic evaluation: Immediate behavioral predispositions to approach or avoid the stimulus. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 25 (2), 215-224.).

Of course you wouldn't understand someone metaphorically speaking of science. But you claimed to.

You are absolutely in denial and the dark. This is negative and will lead to more negativity.

This game is getting boring. Do you have another? Perhaps one with a point, or meaning that doesn't loop right back to ignorance.

You never really answered any of my questions. That's okay though, don't worry about it.

Seriously though, could you please attempt to make a valid point against what I have been saying. I mean I wasn't the one who started this you know.

Thanks again.
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