Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-11-2016, 04:29 AM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(13-11-2016 10:07 PM)seoq Wrote:  It was always my understanding that the populations spread across the earth each had their own language. Example: population A was put in place X by God and everyone in that population shared a new language and population B was put in place Y by God and everyone in that population shared a new language. That -everyone- was made to not understand each other is a new thought to me and I'm a little embarrassed I hadn't considered it. I get what you're saying now Reltzik.

Languages have evolved over time. To take a simple set of examples, both Italian and Spanish are Romance languages - modern languages that evolved from Vulgar Latin between the sixth and ninth centuries. They are now mutually unintelligible but at one time the inhabitants of both Spain and Italy would have spoken a very similar language and would have understood each other. With the fall of the Roman Empire and the resultant breakdown in centralised government, communications and trading links the two languages gradually emerged and changed over time.

It was nothing to do with any god.

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Silly Deity's post
14-11-2016, 04:59 AM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(14-11-2016 04:29 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  
(13-11-2016 10:07 PM)seoq Wrote:  It was always my understanding that the populations spread across the earth each had their own language. Example: population A was put in place X by God and everyone in that population shared a new language and population B was put in place Y by God and everyone in that population shared a new language. That -everyone- was made to not understand each other is a new thought to me and I'm a little embarrassed I hadn't considered it. I get what you're saying now Reltzik.

Languages have evolved over time. To take a simple set of examples, both Italian and Spanish are Romance languages - modern languages that evolved from Vulgar Latin between the sixth and ninth centuries. They are now mutually unintelligible but at one time the inhabitants of both Spain and Italy would have spoken a very similar language and would have understood each other. With the fall of the Roman Empire and the resultant breakdown in centralised government, communications and trading links the two languages gradually emerged and changed over time.

It was nothing to do with any god.

I understand. I'm just giving the benefit of the doubt with my questions and seeing if anyone can respond in a way that gives the biblical narrative credence. I've done this a lot when posting here and it has helped me get a good look at the arguments against a literal Biblical historicity.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-11-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(13-11-2016 07:52 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's against every law of physics-- if a flood on the magnitude contained in the story actually happened, that much rain would have released enough energy in condensation that it would have heated the earth (and increased atmospheric pressure) to the point that even bacteria would have died. It would have required rain on a scale literally hundreds of times more powerful than the most powerful hurrican rainfall ever recorded, in inches per hour, for the entire 40 days and nights, in order for enough rain to fall that it would cover even the top of Mt. Ararat.

The problem with that argument is that the story is clear that water also came up from underground so apologists can easily say that the amount of rain was far less than you are calculating.

That has its own problems of course and not least of which is that for it to reduce the amount of rain sufficiently it would make the rain almost incidental. The rain would simply be adding insult to injury be another sign of the childish nature of their god figure.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-11-2016, 05:55 AM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(13-11-2016 09:49 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  How could they tell their stories if they couldn't speak to each other?

They could preserve the stories within each culture even if they couldn't compare them with neighboring cultures. If the whole world was flooded and only a few survived that would surely have been a major part of the culture in the short time leading to the tower of babel. When the languages were mixed and the people scattered you'd expect each of the resulting cultures to keep the flood story and add the fact that suddenly almost all of their close relatives started speaking other languages. We should find very similar stories around the world. We should also find that cultures only go back to roughly the same time.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-11-2016, 06:17 AM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(14-11-2016 05:49 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-11-2016 07:52 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's against every law of physics-- if a flood on the magnitude contained in the story actually happened, that much rain would have released enough energy in condensation that it would have heated the earth (and increased atmospheric pressure) to the point that even bacteria would have died. It would have required rain on a scale literally hundreds of times more powerful than the most powerful hurrican rainfall ever recorded, in inches per hour, for the entire 40 days and nights, in order for enough rain to fall that it would cover even the top of Mt. Ararat.

The problem with that argument is that the story is clear that water also came up from underground so apologists can easily say that the amount of rain was far less than you are calculating.

That has its own problems of course and not least of which is that for it to reduce the amount of rain sufficiently it would make the rain almost incidental. The rain would simply be adding insult to injury be another sign of the childish nature of their god figure.

Well then the question is "where did that water come from, and where did it go?" There is a fairly large amount of water trapped deeeeeeeep underground in the form of rock-crystals, but it's not nearly the volume required for flooding the planet in the way described in the story, and even if we figured there was some mechanism for bringing it ALL to the surface as the "fountains of the deep", it still leaves a required amount of rainfall that would exceed the strongest hurricane ever recorded by an order of magnitude... the Ark would have been pummeled to splinters, either way. And Noah's family would still have been steamed to death by the heat released from the (lower) amount of rain condensing to fall.

It simply doesn't fit with what we know about physics. It's not even close.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
14-11-2016, 06:35 AM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(14-11-2016 06:17 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(14-11-2016 05:49 AM)unfogged Wrote:  The problem with that argument is that the story is clear that water also came up from underground so apologists can easily say that the amount of rain was far less than you are calculating.

That has its own problems of course and not least of which is that for it to reduce the amount of rain sufficiently it would make the rain almost incidental. The rain would simply be adding insult to injury be another sign of the childish nature of their god figure.

Well then the question is "where did that water come from, and where did it go?" There is a fairly large amount of water trapped deeeeeeeep underground in the form of rock-crystals, but it's not nearly the volume required for flooding the planet in the way described in the story, and even if we figured there was some mechanism for bringing it ALL to the surface as the "fountains of the deep", it still leaves a required amount of rainfall that would exceed the strongest hurricane ever recorded by an order of magnitude... the Ark would have been pummeled to splinters, either way. And Noah's family would still have been steamed to death by the heat released from the (lower) amount of rain condensing to fall.

It simply doesn't fit with what we know about physics. It's not even close.

Well OBVIOUSLY Laughat the great up-welling from the fountains of the deep caused the floating continents (the Bible clearly tells us that the continents float on the ocean, which is how Leviathan swam under them with Jonah) to sink, because there was no longer any water below to provide them with buoyancy. This in turn would have both lowered the mountains and reduced the amount of water required to cover them, and in turn reduce the required rainfall and its damage to the ark.

See? Not a single principle of physics being violated!

... nonono, continents not floating on oceans is a principle of geology, not physics. Shut up.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Reltzik's post
14-11-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(14-11-2016 06:17 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(14-11-2016 05:49 AM)unfogged Wrote:  The problem with that argument is that the story is clear that water also came up from underground so apologists can easily say that the amount of rain was far less than you are calculating.

That has its own problems of course and not least of which is that for it to reduce the amount of rain sufficiently it would make the rain almost incidental. The rain would simply be adding insult to injury be another sign of the childish nature of their god figure.

Well then the question is "where did that water come from, and where did it go?" There is a fairly large amount of water trapped deeeeeeeep underground in the form of rock-crystals, but it's not nearly the volume required for flooding the planet in the way described in the story, and even if we figured there was some mechanism for bringing it ALL to the surface as the "fountains of the deep", it still leaves a required amount of rainfall that would exceed the strongest hurricane ever recorded by an order of magnitude... the Ark would have been pummeled to splinters, either way. And Noah's family would still have been steamed to death by the heat released from the (lower) amount of rain condensing to fall.

It simply doesn't fit with what we know about physics. It's not even close.

Definitely not trying to argue against the fact that the story falls apart no matter how you look at it. It's just that when anybody points out that it could not have rained enough in 40 days to do what the bible says it did they leave themselves open to the "fountains of the deep" reply. Unless you take that into account the theist has an opening to wriggle out of because it makes it sound like you (generic "you") are arguing against a story you haven't read.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-11-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(12-11-2016 08:48 PM)seoq Wrote:  If the flood happened shouldn't there be more cultures with near or even shared Noah stories? I'm not talking about great flood stories which can be explained with the commonality of widespread flooding. I'm talking about stories that can be arguably thought of as a "Noah story". Let's even discount populations and cultures that are found far from where the ark would have been built and landed, which is not justified since the biblical narrative states that all populations originate from Noah. With even these exemptions shouldn't the cultures in the immediate vicinity of the Jews share Noah stories? Why is it a story unique to the biblical narrative?

Edit: The story is obviously shared by non-Christian Jews and not unique to the Bible. Hopefully what I was trying to get across was clear despite this.

As already mentioned, the Noah myth is directly plagiarized from earlier myths.

There are other cultures that have flood stories. Funny thing is, they always seem to coincide with the culture's proximity to living in flood planes.

But if the myth was actually true, there would be no other culture with flood stories, since they were all wiped out.

But of course, this is also wrong, since there are other cultures that have long histories that continued from before the time the flood allegedly happened, through post flood.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Simon Moon's post
14-11-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
My personal favorite issue with the Noah flood story is Australia:

How did the marsupials (and only the marsupials) go from Mount Ararat to Australia, and yet not to New Zealand, since the *only* way to reach those locations is by boat, and why did Ham's descendants (the people who believe the story is literal usually think that each of Noah's kids was a different color: Shem was father of the Semitic peoples, Japheth was father of light-skinned ones, and Ham was father of all the dark-skinned people) all go to Africa except for one group that went in a totally different direction... apparently building a fleet of ships by which to carry only the marsupial animals across with them to the continent Down Under? Did the people packing all those marsupials on the boats to bring to Australia think, "Nah, fuck New Zealand."

Also... which of the three-colored Noah's kids was the parent of the Asian, Native American, and Hindi peoples? Why is it that the writers of the story only accounted for the three types of human that were in proximity to the Middle East, rather than all the peoples of the world... especially given that even back then, Asian peoples made up half the world population, not a small "detail" to leave completely out of the picture.

The amount of mental gymnastics (or not thinking too much about it at all) it takes to believe in that ancient myth is amazing, to me. I could see accepting that BS as reality back in the dark ages, when we didn't know much about physics, geography, anthropology, or population genetics... but to still believe it today? Sheesh!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
15-11-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: Shouldn't there be more cultures with near exact Noah stories?
(12-11-2016 08:48 PM)seoq Wrote:  If the flood happened shouldn't there be more cultures with near or even shared Noah stories? I'm not talking about great flood stories which can be explained with the commonality of widespread flooding. I'm talking about stories that can be arguably thought of as a "Noah story". Let's even discount populations and cultures that are found far from where the ark would have been built and landed, which is not justified since the biblical narrative states that all populations originate from Noah. With even these exemptions shouldn't the cultures in the immediate vicinity of the Jews share Noah stories? Why is it a story unique to the biblical narrative?

Edit: The story is obviously shared by non-Christian Jews and not unique to the Bible. Hopefully what I was trying to get across was clear despite this.
If the story was true, then it would be everyone's story because everyone would have descended from Noah's family and surely would have been told how "special" Noah was with gawd. The fact that it isn't shared by all cultures is evidence that it's not true. Not being true, I wouldn't expect to see it anywhere beyond the scope of its applicability as fiction.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: