"Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
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06-02-2014, 12:44 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(06-02-2014 12:36 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 08:35 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I assume you are meaning abiogenesis? No atheist claims the universe (which is nature) created itself.

Nope, I mean that existence was caused by a process inherent within it.

Okay. Now we'll need to clarify what you mean by that. Who or what's existence? The universe itself? Us as humans?

Existence is a concept. It is a self evident concept, sure. I think, therefore....

Hold on, we've been down this road before. Dodgy

Explain your comment that atheists claim that nature is self-creating, I'm still not sure what angle you're trying to pull with that statement. Gimme something to think about.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-02-2014, 12:44 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(05-02-2014 09:25 PM)Youkay Wrote:  Frankly, I believe that the universe did not have an extrinsic force which lead to its creation. I am currently of the opinion that it is quite plausible that quantum mechanical processes might have created our universe. I believe this, because this theory is being presented with very good arguments, calculations and fits experimental data. It is not proven by any means. But the burden of proof was sufficiently satisfied to convince people.

Having said that, quantum mechanical processes are part of nature, therefore I do infact believe that nature is self-creating in that sense.

Or is something else implied in that previous statement?

I presume you mean the spontaneous creation of matter/anti-matter from 'nothing'. If the arguments you believe of like those often proposed by Krauss, I will leave you to believe what you prefer. Otherwise I'd be interested in why you think this.

What convinces you that existence is not a prerequisite for the spontaneous creation of matter? Given all arguments, calculations and experiment are based on what has been observed within existence, it seems odd to conclude matter pops in and out of 'non-existence' to then cause existence.
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06-02-2014, 12:49 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(05-02-2014 08:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 08:35 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I assume you are meaning abiogenesis? No atheist claims the universe (which is nature) created itself.

It's just another straw man the lying theist shill pulled out of his ass.

I like the part where the post following yours demonstrates why it's not a strawman. That said, you've never understood what they are, so can't say I'm surprised.

I wonder if you realise what a complete waste of space you are. Do you live a normal life (e.g. job, partner, house friends etc)? I would be surprised if you did, then's a desperation about you.
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06-02-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(06-02-2014 12:01 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 04:47 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  However, way too many atheists claim nature as self-creating, but seemingly don't have to meet this burden. Why? Who the fuck knows.

Sounds like you're assuming that nature can be created.

Unless there is some justification that nature cannot be created, why should I accept this unless I've already reached naturalism as a conclusion?
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06-02-2014, 12:59 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(06-02-2014 12:56 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 12:01 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Sounds like you're assuming that nature can be created.

Unless there is some justification that nature cannot be created, why should I accept this unless I've already reached naturalism as a conclusion?

Yabut, nothing about naturalism claims that nature was created...... I sense some conflating of terms in the near future.... Rolleyes

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-02-2014, 01:03 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(06-02-2014 12:44 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 12:36 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Nope, I mean that existence was caused by a process inherent within it.

Okay. Now we'll need to clarify what you mean by that. Who or what's existence? The universe itself? Us as humans?

Existence is a concept. It is a self evident concept, sure. I think, therefore....

Hold on, we've been down this road before. Dodgy

Explain your comment that atheists claim that nature is self-creating, I'm still not sure what angle you're trying to pull with that statement. Gimme something to think about.

Existence, time, space and matter. I don't think that all atheists believe nature is self-creating, but many posit it as the only possibility for existence. I've yet to hear any convincing arguments, or basis for this.
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06-02-2014, 01:07 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(06-02-2014 12:59 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 12:56 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Unless there is some justification that nature cannot be created, why should I accept this unless I've already reached naturalism as a conclusion?

Yabut, nothing about naturalism claims that nature was created...... I sense some conflating of terms in the near future.... Rolleyes

I never said that it did. Rolleyes indeed.
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06-02-2014, 01:09 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(06-02-2014 01:03 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Existence, time, space and matter. I don't think that all atheists believe nature is self-creating, but many posit it as the only possibility for existence. I've yet to hear any convincing arguments, or basis for this.

You have a citation for this? I've never heard anyone claim that something created itself from nothing. Should we define nothing?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-02-2014, 01:09 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
Do you dimiss Krauss' theory? If so, why?

To be fair, I do not understand Krauss' theory fully. Actually, only the principals. And I am in no position to argue against it or for it. All I know is some quantum physics. Therefore I would be interested to hear your criticizm, if you have any. It would be a good opportunity for myself as well.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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06-02-2014, 01:15 AM
RE: "Show me scientific facts on your disbelief in all Gods".
(06-02-2014 01:09 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 01:03 AM)Brownshirt Wrote:  Existence, time, space and matter. I don't think that all atheists believe nature is self-creating, but many posit it as the only possibility for existence. I've yet to hear any convincing arguments, or basis for this.

You have a citation for this? I've never heard anyone claim that something created itself from nothing. Should we define nothing?

Many atheists posit that existence was caused by the spontaneous generation of matter which was catalyst for the singularity. You brought up nothing, not me.
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