Shroud is legit!!!
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09-02-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
(09-02-2017 10:22 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Artwork - probably fairly gaudy at the time it was made but now faded to the point where the image is nearly invisible.

Anyway, the "Top of the Head Problem" crushes any thought that the fucking thing is real.

[Image: image26.png]

Note that the front of the head and the back of the head are separated by about a half inch so either "jesus" was a half inch thick or this thing was laid over a thin board!

Greet Gumby Jesus!

[Image: proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thethir...d71ed562b2]
Holy shit, I didn't even think of that. That makes a whole lot of sense. I'm going to have to mention that the next time I get into an argument about the shroud.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
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09-02-2017, 11:47 AM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
In 1389 the Bishop of Troyes denounced the shroud, then on display at a church in Lirey, France, as a fraud. Forgetting about his motives for doing so the key word is the concept of display. It is doubtful that a bunch of 14th century peasants would have understood much at all about how to properly display such an artifact and protect it from the damaging effects of sun and air.

One can reasonably be certain that in order to attract pilgrims and their money - which is always at the bottom of all of this catholic relic horseshit - the thing had to be fairly ornate and not what we see today which looks like a series of random smudges unless you take a photographic negative of it.

This is what the fucking thing looks like without photographic enhancement.

[Image: fullcolrweb72dpix.jpg]

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09-02-2017, 12:50 PM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
(09-02-2017 11:47 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  In 1389 the Bishop of Troyes denounced the shroud, then on display at a church in Lirey, France, as a fraud. Forgetting about his motives for doing so the key word is the concept of display. It is doubtful that a bunch of 14th century peasants would have understood much at all about how to properly display such an artifact and protect it from the damaging effects of sun and air.

One can reasonably be certain that in order to attract pilgrims and their money - which is always at the bottom of all of this catholic relic horseshit - the thing had to be fairly ornate and not what we see today which looks like a series of random smudges unless you take a photographic negative of it.

This is what the fucking thing looks like without photographic enhancement.

[Image: fullcolrweb72dpix.jpg]

They did radio carbon dating on it in the 80's which matched the first historical appearance of it in the 1300's. This is really a closed case, the art historian Nicholas Allen demonstrated that there were techniques for creating such photographic imagery on cloth in the 1300's as detailed in The Book of optics around that time period.

This is just a process of Catholic believers refusing to accept evidence and they have been in denial about this since the 1300's even when prominent Catholic officials denounce it as a fraud.




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09-02-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
I love how he says that they made a 3D image and that:

For a normal photograph, the result would be a distorted image: with the shroud, however, the natural, 3-D relief of a human form came through. This means “there’s a correlation between image density – lights and darks on the image – and cloth to body distance.”

“The only way that can happen is by some interaction between cloth and body,” he said. “It can’t be projected. It’s not a photograph – photographs don’t have that kind of information, artworks don’t.”


However he doesn't seem to realize that the obvious answer to this proposed problem is that somebody covered a actual man in paint and draped the fabric over him.

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09-02-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
(09-02-2017 11:30 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 10:22 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Artwork - probably fairly gaudy at the time it was made but now faded to the point where the image is nearly invisible.

Anyway, the "Top of the Head Problem" crushes any thought that the fucking thing is real.

[Image: image26.png]

Note that the front of the head and the back of the head are separated by about a half inch so either "jesus" was a half inch thick or this thing was laid over a thin board!

Greet Gumby Jesus!

[Image: proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thethir...d71ed562b2]
Holy shit, I didn't even think of that. That makes a whole lot of sense. I'm going to have to mention that the next time I get into an argument about the shroud.

I'd like to agree with this, but that's not quite accurate. If you see the shoulder line on both sides, you can tell this was wrapped around an actual body and that's the top of the head you're seeing immediately next to the crown of his head, not the mirror-image back of the head. What makes it a fraud is when it was made. They have a lot of special pleading to "refute" the carbon dating, but that isn't a surprise.

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09-02-2017, 02:43 PM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
(09-02-2017 07:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 11:14 PM)leigh7911 Wrote:  I particularly like this bit:


I mean, he's not technically wrong.

It's an image of an OLD Italian dude.
It's not an image of a 30 year old Near Eastern male.

Actually, he looks like a character off a Monty Python movie.

The studies I have seen which support its being an authentic shroud suggest that the dating of it is innacurate because the sample of material was taken from the edges, where it had been handled by people in later years.

There's no reason why a shroud would not have been kept of a "Jewish Prince" of the line of David. There's less likelihood that one would have been kept of some wandering Buddhistic priest who earned a living as a carpenter.

The 3d image is interesting because it does show it to be of an older man. Then, Christians take it and try to morph it into a younger man.

What I find hilarious...utterly...is that it corresponds in age to the Ralph Ellis "Jesus" lmao.

I mean, seriously, who knows who it was, but it looks like he was brutally flailed and then crucified. He looks like an old aristocratic type. Then, there's an oral tradition saying it's "Jesus".

What I find compelling about it being a real shroud is that I can't figure out how it could be faked. It could be "fake" in that it isn't "Jesus", but it would be easier to make a shroud of a dead man by putting a shroud on a dead man. That seems to me to be the easiest way to make a death shroud...

There's a false argument going on here. Some people want to debunk it as the shroud of Jesus by saying it is totally faked by using some method of producing it other than placing a shroud on a dead guy. This, they say, proves it isn't Jesus. If the carbon dating is correct, obviously, it's not him.

But, I still think the funniest thing of all is that it ties in with the age of Izates Monobaz who would have been an old guy about 60.

Hahahahahaha. hehehehhehhehe
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09-02-2017, 04:50 PM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
(09-02-2017 02:00 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 11:30 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Holy shit, I didn't even think of that. That makes a whole lot of sense. I'm going to have to mention that the next time I get into an argument about the shroud.

I'd like to agree with this, but that's not quite accurate. If you see the shoulder line on both sides, you can tell this was wrapped around an actual body and that's the top of the head you're seeing immediately next to the crown of his head, not the mirror-image back of the head. What makes it a fraud is when it was made. They have a lot of special pleading to "refute" the carbon dating, but that isn't a surprise.


The rest of the image is so faint that it is almost a Rorschach test. The head is fairly distinct though and, as this fellow notes:

https://shroudstory.com/2014/01/15/top-of-head-puzzle/

Quote:However, even this sort of theory breaks down when it comes to the crown of the head, and I cannot resolve it. Essentially there are two distinct ways of bringing the cloth over the head of a body lying on its back.

The first is to maintain the near-horizontal aspect of the cloth over the face and also over the back of the head. There should then be a short section of cloth, clear of the head, on which there is no image, and we would see a gap not less than about 30cm between. There is course no gap seen at all, but the frontal and dorsal images at the crown abut each other.

The second way is to wrap the cloth in near-contact with the hair. However this would cause a major variation in the orthogonality of the image on the cloth, no matter what the imaging process might be, and there would be significant distortion. The only way this can be avoided, is for a spontaneous precise distortion of the cloth at the crown for no explicable reason at the immediate instant of the imaging process, followed by restoration to normality afterwards. This notional distortion of the cloth has to be so precise, that the resulting image retains its orthogonality. I cannot imagine how such a remarkable occurence could possibly come about.

Of course he is all but inviting apologists to come out of the woodwork to prepare phony excuses for why their bullshit is true. I doubt many of them will be convincing.[/quote]

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09-02-2017, 05:39 PM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
I'm not convinced this 30cm argument is one I'd rest my argument on, but it's fun to toss out there. When the image is "enhanced" you can see the mirror-image of the shoulders line up while the two sides of the head can't possibly be butted up against each other. It doesn't even look like that. But, still, it's all bullshit. I love the excuse some apologists give that the earthquake that happened when he emerged from the tomb or whatever created some neutrons that throw off any attempt to accurately carbon date the shroud.

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09-02-2017, 07:56 PM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
(09-02-2017 05:39 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'm not convinced this 30cm argument is one I'd rest my argument on, but it's fun to toss out there. When the image is "enhanced" you can see the mirror-image of the shoulders line up while the two sides of the head can't possibly be butted up against each other. It doesn't even look like that. But, still, it's all bullshit. I love the excuse some apologists give that the earthquake that happened when he emerged from the tomb or whatever created some neutrons that throw off any attempt to accurately carbon date the shroud.

Oh, you mean the earthquake that no one else noticed? Yeah. That was a bad one.

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09-02-2017, 11:20 PM
RE: Shroud is legit!!!
(09-02-2017 05:39 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I love the excuse some apologists give that the earthquake that happened when he emerged from the tomb or whatever created some neutrons that throw off any attempt to accurately carbon date the shroud.

Wait. What? That's... I mean... Huh? Well, ok then.
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