Shutting up preachers
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06-07-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
We spotted the baby-faced proselytizers on Main Street earlier today. You know, the ones in black pants, white long-sleeve shirts and ties (in 90 degree weather) who look about twelve and have been set upon the public to spread the word? I expect they'll make it to my house over the weekend. I feel a revival for the Church of the Rising Penis coming on. I almost feel sorry for them.

So young.

So naive.

[Image: shaking-no-smiley-emoticon.gif]

Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?
"Life is not all lovely thorns and singing vultures, you know." ~ Morticia Addams
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07-07-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(06-07-2017 07:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:I see. Well, if any version of "God" showed up, then I would know it is a real thing (assuming I had reason to believe I wasn't dreaming or hallucinating). I'd be a theist at that point.
You would know that you see real person but how would you know that this real person is telling you the truth? How would you know that He is who He says He is? The answer: only by the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost can influence you the way that you would have no doubt that the person that tell you He is God, is telling the truth. You would be convinced.
But if later you deny that God is real and deny that things He told you are true then you deny that power that convinced you. You deny the power of the Holy Ghost. This is the sin against the Holy Ghost.
So, according to the scriptures it will be people who would do such thing. They would deny the truth not because they don't believe it any more but for different reason. Usually it is because they are angry at God because they disagree with Him on something.
Just to say stuff about the Holy Ghost using vulgar language especially while you are atheist is just a silly thing. I don't get angry at you when you do this.
P.S. Unlike in earthly courts in heavenly court those who do not know or do not understand the law are not accountable for breaking the law.

So, as I said in the rest of my post, God would be changing me as a person. He'd be messing with my brain, my free will and my beliefs. He's generated a new version of me that believes whatever he wants it to. If there's any part of me left in there, I wouldn't be surprised if this made it angry. That anger wouldn't make me deny something I thought was true; like I said, truth is not the issue. It would however make me want to keep that dick of a God as far away from me as possible.

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08-07-2017, 07:02 AM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(01-07-2017 08:50 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I had an idea for getting (Christian) religious preachers to leave you alone. This could be on the street, on a forum, or some family members who hassle you constantly. I don't know how well it would work, but I thought it might be worth a try:

Say, "Fuck the Holy Spirit", or words to that effect. I'll say it right now. Fuck the Holy Spirit.

Quote:Mark 3:29

but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

You're now beyond redemption so the person will be literally wasting their time trying to convert you. The good thing is that this is in the earliest of the four main Gospel stories. If someone pulls out some seemingly contradictory verse from a later story, then you can point out it's an attempt to retcon the text. God can't have been wrong initially, can he?

Do you think this would work? I was thinking that you only have to say this once to anyone who believes in this unforgivable sin and you're golden forever. Our resident Christians are welcome to chime in on whether they think I'm now beyond redemption.

You have not committed the unpardonable sin. You need to examine the context of the quote you posted:

And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.” And he called them to him and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

“Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
(Mark 3:22-30)

Jesus had cast out demons in the power of the Holy Spirit and he was accused of doing this by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of the demons. In other words, they were saying that the Holy Spirit was a demon. They believed in the existence of God and they had enough evidence to know that Jesus was exercising the power of God, but they rejected this knowledge and attributed the work of Jesus to a demon. They knew the truth and rejected it.

An atheist can't commit this sin because he doesn't believe in the existence of God or of the Holy Spirit. Your statement about the Holy Spirit is only a sin of ignorance, not a deliberate rejection of the truth. An atheist cannot commit the unpardonable sin. He may have committed it before he became an atheist, but I have read what you say about yourself on your website and I think it is unlikely that you have ever done this. You are not beyond redemption; you can still be saved if you will turn from your atheism, repent of your sins, and put your faith in Jesus Christ.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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08-07-2017, 07:18 AM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 07:02 AM)theophilus Wrote:  An atheist can't commit this sin because he doesn't believe in the existence of God or of the Holy Spirit. Your statement about the Holy Spirit is only a sin of ignorance, not a deliberate rejection of the truth.
Ironically, in my experience most atheists are far less ignorant about theology / dogma and related matters than most theists. So to call it a "sin of ignorance" is rather cheeky of you. Especially given that atheism is nearly always a side effect of not affording belief to the unsubstantiated, which means one must be familiar with what HAS been substantiated and the methods whereby this occurs, whereas a believer simply needs to accept dogma without question and is actively discouraged from observing experienced reality without preconception or axiomatic assumptions.

I cannot imagine how you would validly characterized a skeptic, who is inherently a questioner and keen observer, as ignorant relative to someone who is credulous about religious faith claims, and therefore is inherently not a questioner of those claims. I suppose that you will claim some special experiential knowledge via the gift of religious faith, but that is a circular claim: "just believe and then you will believe". The very definition of confirmation bias.
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08-07-2017, 09:24 AM
RE: Shutting up preachers
Robvalue Wrote:So, as I said in the rest of my post, God would be changing me as a person. He'd be messing with my brain, my free will and my beliefs.
Sorry, I still don't see what you see.
According to the Gospel of Christ, God doesn't change people. God only gives us knowledge and opportunities for a change.
Oh, there is no such thing as "free will". I don't even know who came up with this "free will" thing.
What we ALL have is "moral agency".

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08-07-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: Shutting up preachers
Robvalue Wrote:That anger wouldn't make me deny something I thought was true; like I said, truth is not the issue.
I am talking about false witnessing. Angry person can deny the truth by testifying to others while in his/her mind and heart he/she knows by the power of the Holy Ghost)what the truth is.
To deny the truth about God publically after receiving it by the power of the Holy Ghost is sin against the Holy Ghost.

According to the prophets it is not too many people who were, are, will become sinners against the Holy Ghost. I don't believe you or I are going to be in this group.

P.S. I think I see(understand) now what you mean when you say that God messes up with the brain. To convince someone about something by the power of the Holy Ghost against their will is messing up with someone's brain, free will believes.. Am I correct? If yes, I will respond to this comment.

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08-07-2017, 12:35 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(05-07-2017 06:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  If one day God appears to you and gives you a revelation you WILL KNOW that it is God and that what He says is true. You will know it because the Holy Ghost has this special power to convince you about all truth. Only by the power of the Holy Ghost you can know ALL truth about eternity/God/Gods.

This would be indistinguishable from some entity casting a spell on me, being possessed by a demon, or being upgraded into a Cyberman - some sort of wetware reprogramming. The Holy Ghost sounds like a bootstrap routine that takes away all scepticism and leaves your brain open to anything; you will be unable to tell with any certainty that what you are told is true though you will believe it is.

John Barnes's Candle examines the idea as does Rudy Rucker's Ware Tetralogy.

“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.” - John Scalzi

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08-07-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
Norm Deplume Wrote:This would be indistinguishable from some entity casting a spell on me, being possessed by a demon, or being upgraded into a Cyberman - some sort of wetware reprogramming.
Correct.


Norm Deplume Wrote:The Holy Ghost sounds like a bootstrap routine that takes away all scepticism and leaves your brain open to anything; you will be unable to tell with any certainty that what you are told is true though you will believe it is.
Correct.
In this life we live by faith (if we talk about eternal things and salivation of men)
I can know that the source of the revelation was good if there are good fruits as a result.

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08-07-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  In this life we live by faith (if we talk about eternal things and salivation of men)
I can know that the source of the revelation was good if there are good fruits as a result.
Actually theres NO way to tell religious faith from human imagination. You might have a revelation that little invisible martians are tending to your every need, clearing your path through life and bringing favor and blessing your way. As a result you may be more confident and positive, particularly if nothing particularly bad happens to you. You would likely feel gratitude to the martians. These are all "good fruits" resulting from your "revelation". But that doesn't mean that the little invisible martians are real. Indeed, it doesn't mean you're mentally well.
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08-07-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 09:47 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:That anger wouldn't make me deny something I thought was true; like I said, truth is not the issue.
I am talking about false witnessing. Angry person can deny the truth by testifying to others while in his/her mind and heart he/she knows by the power of the Holy Ghost)what the truth is.
To deny the truth about God publically after receiving it by the power of the Holy Ghost is sin against the Holy Ghost.

According to the prophets it is not too many people who were, are, will become sinners against the Holy Ghost. I don't believe you or I are going to be in this group.

P.S. I think I see(understand) now what you mean when you say that God messes up with the brain. To convince someone about something by the power of the Holy Ghost against their will is messing up with someone's brain, free will believes.. Am I correct? If yes, I will respond to this comment.

Yes, exactly. Their agency is being violated. God can of course do whatever he wants, but I don't have to like it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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