Shutting up preachers
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08-07-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Norm Deplume Wrote:This would be indistinguishable from some entity casting a spell on me, being possessed by a demon, or being upgraded into a Cyberman - some sort of wetware reprogramming.
Correct.


Norm Deplume Wrote:The Holy Ghost sounds like a bootstrap routine that takes away all scepticism and leaves your brain open to anything; you will be unable to tell with any certainty that what you are told is true though you will believe it is.
Correct.
In this life we live by faith (if we talk about eternal things and salivation of men)
I can know that the source of the revelation was good if there are good fruits as a result.

How would you know that the results were good when you have no critical faculties? Whatever your controller wants you to believe, you will believe having no choice in the matter. Zombies and automata can't think for themselves but that is the state you seem to be aiming for.

“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.” - John Scalzi

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08-07-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
Norm Deplume Wrote:How would you know that the results were good when you have no critical faculties?
I would believe they were good if they made me happy, if they comforted me and gave me peace.

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08-07-2017, 01:56 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 01:26 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Norm Deplume Wrote:How would you know that the results were good when you have no critical faculties?
I would believe they were good if they made me happy, if they comforted me and gave me peace.
Superficially that sounds good. The question, though, is whether you value good feelings more than you value an accurate apprehension of reality. Sometimes, reality bites, as they say; what is actual and true is not necessarily that which feels the best.

In my experience, believing what feels good to you is, in the short term, easier, but has poor staying power. When I was a believer, my beliefs brought me comfort and peace, until they didn't. That is to say, when they were at least rationalizably consistent with experienced reality (examples: god promises protection and I feel safe; god promises wisdom and I don't make stupid mistakes; god is supposed to answer prayer so long as it's not "asking amiss" and I get most of the sensible / selfless things I pray for) they were great touchstones. But when they began to diverge from experienced reality (examples: recognized intercessory "prayer warriors" went "to the mat" on behalf of my wife during crucial health crises but she died anyway; Christians are supposed to be "victorious" but I felt defeated more often than not) then that produced BAD feelings. And once the abstraction started to leak, the leak quickly widened into a rupture and there were NO good feelings to be had. And since things you know can't be unknown, each time the predictions or explanations provided by religious faith failed to pan out, my ability to accept them trustingly and uncritically was undermined. The bigger the impedance mismatch between what I expected and what I got, the greater my unhappiness.

It's my conclusion that some people have far better "rationalizers" wired into their brains than I do. Mine burned out and blew several gaskets fairly early in life. It didn't help that I had some unusually bad experiences the went right to the heart of my core values and devastated my family. But I rather think that even if I had a far luckier time of it in life, I would still have ultimately drifted away from my faith of origin, because I'm simply too observant and aware to gloss over even minor cognitive dissonance. It would have taken longer to catch up to me, but catch up it would have.
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08-07-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 01:26 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Norm Deplume Wrote:How would you know that the results were good when you have no critical faculties?
I would believe they were good if they made me happy, if they comforted me and gave me peace.

When your owner tells you you are happy and at peace, then you have no choice but to believe that, not realising that there could be such a thing as a choice. That is the way things are when you are in thrall to someone or something else. You cannot think otherwise.

“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.” - John Scalzi

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08-07-2017, 03:46 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
Norm Deplume Wrote:When your owner tells you you are happy and at peace, then you have no choice but to believe that, not realising that there could be such a thing as a choice
Ok.
But when nobody tells me this, when I feel happy then I know what I feel.

English is my second language.
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08-07-2017, 03:59 PM
RE: Shutting up preachers
mordant Wrote:Superficially that sounds good. The question, though, is whether you value good feelings more than you value an accurate apprehension of reality.
I guess I value both equally.

mordant Wrote:When I was a believer, my beliefs brought me comfort and peace, until they didn't.
Hmm, my believes never bring me comfort or peace. But the fruits(results) of my beliefs make me happy. The results(fruits) of my believes are reality.

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09-07-2017, 02:40 AM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 03:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Norm Deplume Wrote:When your owner tells you you are happy and at peace, then you have no choice but to believe that, not realising that there could be such a thing as a choice
Ok.
But when nobody tells me this, when I feel happy then I know what I feel.

But you do not know if you have been told. Remember that you agreed the Holy Ghost is indistinguishable from any other controlling agency. Your particular Dark Lord/Big Brother/One True/god/demon would make sure that that you are not aware of the extent of your programming, only its effect. Knowing what you feel fails to address the reason for the feeling.

“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.” - John Scalzi

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09-07-2017, 03:24 AM
RE: Shutting up preachers
When I was younger and LDS or JW's would come to the door I would always ask them if I could pray before they came in "Lord Lucifer may your fire's enlighten our minds." about then they were usually running away for all they were worth.
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09-07-2017, 06:08 AM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 03:59 PM)Alla Wrote:  
mordant Wrote:Superficially that sounds good. The question, though, is whether you value good feelings more than you value an accurate apprehension of reality.
I guess I value both equally.
I don't think what you post supports that claim. You said good / pleasant outcomes or "fruits" (or, in effect, your feelings) govern your judgments about whether something is likely to be true. You clearly have some "bridge too far" where you won't wander arbitrarily far from observed reality, but your response to something not aligning with reality isn't to adjust the belief, but to manufacture a new rationalization for the belief to explain the discrepancy.
(08-07-2017 03:59 PM)Alla Wrote:  
mordant Wrote:When I was a believer, my beliefs brought me comfort and peace, until they didn't.
Hmm, my believes never bring me comfort or peace. But the fruits(results) of my beliefs make me happy. The results(fruits) of my believes are reality.
Eh ... enough with the semantic tap-dancing, already. One can't be happy and be uncomfortable and tormented, now, can they? Okay, your beliefs will make you happy, until they don't, then. My whole point (which you studiously ignored) was that this is only sustainable in the presence of lots of good luck and/or a strong ability to rationalize. Eventually you run out of luck or your rationalizations lead you so far from actual reality that you become delusional or incoherent. Based on your posts, you seem to lean toward incoherent, not in the sense of "word salad" thankfully, but in the sense of constantly moving the goal-posts.
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09-07-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: Shutting up preachers
(08-07-2017 09:24 AM)Alla Wrote:  According to the Gospel of Christ, God doesn't change people. God only gives us knowledge and opportunities for a change.

When someone believes the gospel he is reborn spiritually and becomes a child of God. Until we take this step we are spiritually dead and can't change ourselves no matter how much knowledge we have.

(09-07-2017 03:24 AM)BlkFnx Wrote:  When I was younger and LDS or JW's would come to the door I would always ask them if I could pray before they came in "Lord Lucifer may your fire's enlighten our minds." about then they were usually running away for all they were worth.

I guess they didn't realize that they are actually servants of Lucifer. Lucifer, or Satan as he is generally known, can appear as an angel of light and convince people that the message he is giving them comes from God.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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