Sin
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09-12-2013, 07:17 PM
Sin
I've come to the conclusion that I simply don't get the creationist mindset, and never will. One of the big issues that comes up is SIN.

Yes, that's right, the big one. SIN. Growing up I was always warned about sin. Eating meat on Friday was a sin, wearing jeans and tennis shoes to mass was a sin, cursing at the neighbor kids when they cheated was a sin, cheating back after they cheated was a sin, premarital sex was a sin, etc. But it was never really explained what sin actually WAS. Not down to the root of it anyway. So I went and looked it up.

Sin is essentially broken down as such, directly disobeying God and actions that distract from God or that are not actions taken by a "perfect being." The first is fairly straight forward, directly disobeying God's laws. OK. First we must define what God we are talking about, and that's a bit more difficult than you might think. If we define God as "the best in ourselves" then there's no problem. Sin would be anything that goes against that which is good within you. Stealing, murder, rape, all sins and I would agree all evil. But if we define God as the God of the Bible then everything is permitted so long as God commands it. God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son and Abraham goes to obey. God commands rape and murder, and the Isrealites obey. God commands the killing of people who don't worship him, deems them as worse than human beings. I don't accept this. I have never accepted "because I say so" as a valid reason for anything (pity my poor parents). God does not get away with it either. He does not get to put one set of laws for some people and another for a different group of people just "because he says so." That's not a valid reason. The apologists will say that they were corrupt. How? Were there not moral people among the non-believers then? Are there not non-believers now who are perfectly moral? What right does anyone, even God, have to condemn anyone for private thoughts?

The second type is those sins that distract from God or take away from the state of a perfect being. These are "sins that arise from every day living." This irritates me on another level. It is a sin to eat, since it distracts from God and is a pleasure of the flesh. Yet we eat in order to live, in order to sustain our lives. To not eat is to commit suicide, which is also a sin. It is a sin to feel ambition, yet it is ambition that drives us to seek to live in this world. It is a sin to feel lust or love for another human being, and yet this is one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Bottom line: in order to sustain and enjoy the precious gift which is our life we must live in sin. We are damned for our life and our love of our lives.

I reject this. I reject it wholeheartedly. I refuse to accept that I am guilty simply for having that one most precious gift of all, my life. I refuse to accept that my love of this world is what damns me. But this isn't what irritates me the most.

Original. Sin.

This is the most atrocious doctrine of all. The idea that we are guilty for something that we had no control over. "The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons." We are guilty due to the actions of others whom we have and can have no say in. We are damned, not for our own actions and crimes, but for the actions of others long dead. And in order to repent we must rely on the murder of a man who committed no crime. We must offer to death and torture a man who did nothing wrong in order to pay for the crimes of others.

This is THE MOST repellant doctrine of all. I am NOT, nor is anyone else, responsible for the actions of others. We cannot be. A person can only be responsible for their own actions. Any God who damns a person for an action that they DID NOT CHOOSE is monstrously unjust. Any God that demands the murder of an innocent to appease the crimes of others is beyond unjust. I do not take blame that is not mine, and I do not engage in human sacrifices. If there was a Jesus it was monstrously unjust to murder him and I will take no benefit from that. I will not allow anyone else to pay for my crimes.

Sorry for the rant.
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09-12-2013, 07:48 PM
RE: Sin
Yeah, it's not a good system for dealing with personal accountability. You're blamed for something you didn't do (and are being punished for it), and yet, if you say the magic words, you are absolved of all your wrong doings. There's no real incentive for doing right in the first place. Sure, you're frequently told to be nice, but the Bible is pretty contradictory when it comes to how you will (or if you will) be punished for doing wrong things.
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09-12-2013, 07:57 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 07:17 PM)natachan Wrote:  But this isn't what irritates me the most.
Original. Sin.
This is the most atrocious doctrine of all. The idea that we are guilty for something that we had no control over.
Indeed it is false doctrine that we are guilty for something we didn't do or we have no control over.

(09-12-2013 07:17 PM)natachan Wrote:  "The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons."
Does it say that sons are guilty of what fathers did? No, it doesn't say this.
It says that sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons. What does it mean.
1)If I lie and kill and steal and teach my children to live this kind of life they will do what I do. Their sins will be the same as mine(shall be visited upon them)
2)If I use drugs(evil/sin) while I am pregnant my child will become an addict. My sin shall be visited upon my child.

(09-12-2013 07:17 PM)natachan Wrote:  This is THE MOST repellant doctrine of all. I am NOT, nor is anyone else,
I agree. Not even one Prophet of God teaches this FALSE/evil doctrine

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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09-12-2013, 08:02 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 07:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 07:17 PM)natachan Wrote:  But this isn't what irritates me the most.
Original. Sin.
This is the most atrocious doctrine of all. The idea that we are guilty for something that we had no control over.
Indeed it is false doctrine that we are guilty for something we didn't do or we have no control over.

Its the very foundation of your Beligion. You didn't think this through, did you.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-12-2013, 08:30 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 08:02 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 07:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  Indeed it is false doctrine that we are guilty for something we didn't do or we have no control over.

Its the very foundation of your Beligion. You didn't think this through, did you.

I have to agree with Taq here. I mean, the reason child birth is painful, the reason women have periods, and having lust for our husbands are all punishment for eve's original sin according to the bible.

If you don't agree with the bible, and the bible is the only thing that says your god is real.... Confused
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09-12-2013, 08:53 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 08:30 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 08:02 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Its the very foundation of your Beligion. You didn't think this through, did you.

I have to agree with Taq here. I mean, the reason child birth is painful, the reason women have periods, and having lust for our husbands are all punishment for eve's original sin according to the bible.

If you don't agree with the bible, and the bible is the only thing that says your god is real.... Confused

If the Genesis account is not 100% factual (and we know for certain it is not) then the entire Judeo-Christian religion falls apart. Without the Garden of Eden there is no original sin no need for any covenant and no reason for a sacrifice (human or animal) and Genesis gets every single detail WRONG. Of course if you study the history of the region and the religions there in you know that Yahweh was not the all powerful creator of the universe he was a local god of a local tribe, the god of the army (Yahweh Sabaoth lord of hosts) 72nd son of El the patriarch of the Canaanite pantheon. Yahweh makes much more sense as a local violent deity of war than as an all powerful ultimate creator, his petty rages and jealousies are those of a small god, one of many and very typical of the area.

I notice that our newest Theist likes mentioning the prophets how does she explain the fact that Moses is universally considered to be a Myth in the academic circles? The entire book of Exodus is lacking in anything even resembling the truth and NO evidence for anything mentioned within has ever been found (and a million + people wandering in the desert for 40 years would leave a hell of a trail if you knew what to look for) In fact you can go so far as to say the first 5 books of the bible (the Torah) are all mythological with no basis in reality.




(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-12-2013, 09:13 PM
RE: Sin
I was Catholic, and Catholics are HUGE on original sin. We are guilty of the sin of Adam, the original sin that was the gaining of sentience. But wait! For Catholics it gets better! The act of sex, of lust, is a sin. You are therefore conceived in sin, and guilty of that sin of conception. You are guilty for the sin that is the pain you bring your mother when you are born. You are guilty because you took nourishment from your parents.
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09-12-2013, 09:15 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 09:13 PM)natachan Wrote:  I was Catholic, and Catholics are HUGE on original sin. We are guilty of the sin of Adam, the original sin that was the gaining of sentience. But wait! For Catholics it gets better! The act of sex, of lust, is a sin. You are therefore conceived in sin, and guilty of that sin of conception. You are guilty for the sin that is the pain you bring your mother when you are born. You are guilty because you took nourishment from your parents.
Blink
So..... No procreating? Jeez talk about religion being bad for society
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09-12-2013, 09:30 PM
RE: Sin
According to Christians, things were perfect in the Garden of Eden until Adam and Eve committed original sin by eating an apple. This is the cause of all suffering. The Christian god that created them is infallible, all-powerful, all-seeing, and all-knowing.

Um...doesn't that mean that he knew that original sin would be committed before he even created them? This reasoning by Christians makes no sense at all.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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09-12-2013, 11:01 PM
RE: Sin
Quote:Yahweh makes much more sense as a local violent deity of war than as an all powerful ultimate creator

Yhwh is sort of like the boss' kid. He doesn't have to do anything but always seems to get the promotion. When the early Judahites were looking for a god for their little shithole of a town called Jerusalem he was a local favorite. Later, when Constantine needed an older religion to give his new one some gravitas he picked yhwh ( maybe because he was as big a prick as Constantine?) and here we are today. You have to admit for not existing, yhwh has done pretty well for himself.

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