Sin
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12-12-2013, 01:22 AM
RE: Sin
(12-12-2013 12:15 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 11:49 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Go fuck yourself.
In the biblical meaning of the term that means "know thyself".

You were trying to make some kind of point? You want a picture of what I am conveying?

Quote:
Quote:It's not personal.

Quote:Don't patronize me, bitch.
I don't. That would be dishonest.

And you have already proven yourself as such, in spades.

Quote:
Quote:Dancefortwo posed the original statement. I want to know what he means by it. However if you wish to give a go at it, that's fine. What do you think one dimensional means? You can frame it alphabetically or chronologically, anyway you feel will communicate it succinctly.

Quote:In short it means you can't imagine anything beyond your narrow, brainwashed superstitious view of the world.
On the contrary, I constantly imagine the eternal.

Um, that is an intrinsic part of your worldview. FAIL.


Quote:This world will pass away along with all of its superstitions.

Including yours. Yes, probably in a few million years. That's not an "eternity".

Quote:At any rate, I am not so sure that is what dancefortwo meant. He was referring to a fundamentalist point of view, whatever that is.

It's YOUR point of view. It looks like this:

[Image: headupass.jpg]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 01:26 AM
RE: Sin
(12-12-2013 12:33 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 11:49 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Go fuck yourself.

How rude!

You think that's rude? I can show you rude....

Quote:
(11-12-2013 11:49 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Don't patronize me, bitch.

What a sexist remark!

Actually, it's lost any sort of sexist connotation over the years and is only mildly rude anymore. The new "bitch" is "cunt". Quit your whining, bitch.

Quote:You are a disgrace. (still)


Nyeah nyeah. And you are still a whiny pussy.

Quote:I see the *cough* moderation of this forum hasnt improved. Angry

I think it is the best there has ever been.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 02:57 AM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2013 06:02 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 12:31 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  While I can't prove you wrong, this is a perfect example of not even wrong. That's functionally identical to me saying "On May 25, 2014, a great king will fall. Oh, and at some point in the future (not even before or on May 25), I will tell you what I actually mean by the words 'May 25, 2014', 'great king' and 'fall' mean". Sure, I might technically be correct in whatever I retroactively declare, but it certainly isn't a very useful way for conveying information.
That's like being vague on purpose !
(11-12-2013 09:35 PM)childeye Wrote:  Ah a trick question. Let me see. Is it because you were present when the universe was created?
Why are you assuming that it was created ?
(11-12-2013 11:34 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, for fucks sake. You are now claiming that islamic nutjobs didn't hijack airliners and fly them into the WTC buildings? I fucking WATCHED IT HAPPEN. Need I show any more proof that you are a fucking idiot?
[Image: 911-was-done-by-aliens-thumb.jpg] all you people GOT IT WRONG !
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12-12-2013, 06:14 AM
RE: Sin
(12-12-2013 12:48 AM)childeye Wrote:  As I recall, I simply said that the God of the bible is love and Love is the spiritual goodness in mankind. That is the simple Truth. You all wanted to dismiss that because you all have more fun cutting down people when counting God as religion or superstition. I honestly don't see what is evasive about what I said. I'm being as straight forward as possible.

Actually the god of the Bible was the Babylonian war god, who indiscriminately "smote" anyone, (including women and innocent babies) who got in the way. You call THAT "love" ? You have redefined your terms, as it's the ONLY way it still makes any sense in 2013. You attempt to re-write history. You are intellectually dishonest. You not only lie to others, you lie to yourself. You have a VERY selective reading, and memory. St Paul said love was a virtue, not a deity. YOU are a heretic. No one has "fun" "cutting people down". Idiots who spout lies are simply liars, and can expect to be called out for being dishonest, as you are, and as Lion IRC has always been here, (even while you whine to high heaven about it). Go away. You add nothing here, Childish. Buh-bye.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-12-2013, 06:43 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 07:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  How do you know this? What is godliness in your definition?


Alla - you do realize that you're going off your OWN definitions, doctrines, etc as proof of your points - right?
Aka - these are your assertions and not actual Proof of anything. It doesn't make ANYthing you've said More right just because you keep saying it OR that you keep explaining your own doctrines and beliefs.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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12-12-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  You may ignore if you don't know or don't understand. But there are Prophets who can explain. And there is Holy Ghost Who can testify/reveal what SYMBOL like "day" means.
One day of creation can be 24 hours, can be 100 days, can be 1000 years, can be 1 million years or 5 billion years. Nobody can know until God reveals.
God didn't reveal. Those who say that one day of creation is 24 hours HOW do they know?
Those who say it is 1000 years HOW do they know?

It just sounds like rather useless information. Either say what you mean or don't bother saying it. Saying something that could mean anything, yet traditionally has a common meaning is very misleading.


(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  Prophets never set exact dates. God doesn't set exact date for the reason.

The same reason that fortune tellers are deliberately vague, I'm assuming? It makes prophesy fulfillment a heck of a lot easier, especially post hoc.


(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  They didn't have blood. Bible says that "no flesh and BLOOD" can enter God's Kingdom. Before fall Adam and Eve lived in God's Kingdom that is why they could see His glory. They could literally see God.
So, Adam and Eve had no blood. NO flesh and blood can enter God's Kingdom.

When Jesus resurrected He said that His body was "flesh and bones", not "flesh and blood"
When Adam and Eve partook of fruit I assume some kind of chemical reaction happen and whatever their had in their veins turned to blood. Blood makes us MORTAL.
Gods do NOT have blood in Their veins.

That is a very interesting interpretation of it, I'll give you that. Also, a lot of begging the question.


(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  About increasing of pain. What you say makes sense. God said that He will increase sorrow and conception. May be Eve already felt sorrow/pain when her body started to change to mortal state? And God told her that she will feel even greater pain when she is pregnant and gives birth to children?
I am not sure.

Remember, the context of that was you saying that God didn't punish Eve, and me pointing to Genesis 3 saying that he did. That still looks like a punishment. You can argue that death was the natural outcome of sin, but all the extra stuff that God tacked on would be the punishment. Assuming that they are somehow rider clauses of the whole sin = death thing is begging the question.


(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 12:31 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Also, wait. We've been blessed by original sin?
We were not blessed by sin. We were blessed that Adam chose to obey more important law - multiply and replenish the earth instead of not partaking of the fruit.
Remember there are two great commandments:
1)love God
2)love neighbor
Remember Martha and Maria? Martha chose to obey 2nd commandment that evening by serving/loving others - cooked dinner for the hungry.
But Maria chose to obey 1st commandment that evening - she was listening to God/His words.
Martha complained. But Jesus let her know that if she chose to obey 2nd commandment instead of the first she doesn't have to blame Martha for choosing obey the 1st commandment.
Jesus didn't blame Martha for not obeying 1st commandment that evening and He didn't blame Maria for not obeying 2nd commandment - love thy neighbor(serve/feed the hungry)

Adam chose 1st commandment and God didn't blame him for breaking the second.
PAINS are EVIL. Adam chose to know about EVIL(pains). Eve did the same.
God gave to Adam and Eve what they chose.

Wait: so it was vitally important to God's plan that they commit original sin? This whole thing is a manufactroversy!

Why not just just start everything outside of the garden in the first place and leave out all mentioning of original sin from the Bible, if that's what God wanted, anyway? It's not like each and every one of us has to make the stay in the garden/be fruitful and multiply choice, anyway. If God wanted that end result, why leave it up to choice? If Adam did what God wanted, why keep harping on it like it was a big problem, and that all of the worlds woes are a result of it?

"God, why is there evil and suffering in the world?"
"Because Adam did exactly what I wanted him to do!"
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12-12-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: Sin
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  You may ignore if you don't know or don't understand. But there are Prophets who can explain. And there is Holy Ghost Who can testify/reveal what SYMBOL like "day" means.
One day of creation can be 24 hours, can be 100 days, can be 1000 years, can be 1 million years or 5 billion years. Nobody can know until God reveals.
God didn't reveal. Those who say that one day of creation is 24 hours HOW do they know?
Those who say it is 1000 years HOW do they know?

It just sounds like rather useless information. Either say what you mean or don't bother saying it. Saying something that could mean anything, yet traditionally has a common meaning is very misleading.


(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  Prophets never set exact dates. God doesn't set exact date for the reason.

The same reason that fortune tellers are deliberately vague, I'm assuming? It makes prophesy fulfillment a heck of a lot easier, especially post hoc.


(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  They didn't have blood. Bible says that "no flesh and BLOOD" can enter God's Kingdom. Before fall Adam and Eve lived in God's Kingdom that is why they could see His glory. They could literally see God.
So, Adam and Eve had no blood. NO flesh and blood can enter God's Kingdom.

When Jesus resurrected He said that His body was "flesh and bones", not "flesh and blood"
When Adam and Eve partook of fruit I assume some kind of chemical reaction happen and whatever their had in their veins turned to blood. Blood makes us MORTAL.
Gods do NOT have blood in Their veins.

That is a very interesting interpretation of it, I'll give you that. Also, a lot of begging the question.


(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  About increasing of pain. What you say makes sense. God said that He will increase sorrow and conception. May be Eve already felt sorrow/pain when her body started to change to mortal state? And God told her that she will feel even greater pain when she is pregnant and gives birth to children?
I am not sure.

Remember, the context of that was you saying that God didn't punish Eve, and me pointing to Genesis 3 saying that he did. That still looks like a punishment. You can argue that death was the natural outcome of sin, but all the extra stuff that God tacked on would be the punishment. Assuming that they are somehow rider clauses of the whole sin = death thing is begging the question.


(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  We were not blessed by sin. We were blessed that Adam chose to obey more important law - multiply and replenish the earth instead of not partaking of the fruit.
Remember there are two great commandments:
1)love God
2)love neighbor
Remember Martha and Maria? Martha chose to obey 2nd commandment that evening by serving/loving others - cooked dinner for the hungry.
But Maria chose to obey 1st commandment that evening - she was listening to God/His words.
Martha complained. But Jesus let her know that if she chose to obey 2nd commandment instead of the first she doesn't have to blame Martha for choosing obey the 1st commandment.
Jesus didn't blame Martha for not obeying 1st commandment that evening and He didn't blame Maria for not obeying 2nd commandment - love thy neighbor(serve/feed the hungry)

Adam chose 1st commandment and God didn't blame him for breaking the second.
PAINS are EVIL. Adam chose to know about EVIL(pains). Eve did the same.
God gave to Adam and Eve what they chose.

Wait: so it was vitally important to God's plan that they commit original sin? This whole thing is a manufactroversy!

Why not just just start everything outside of the garden in the first place and leave out all mentioning of original sin from the Bible, if that's what God wanted, anyway? It's not like each and every one of us has to make the stay in the garden/be fruitful and multiply choice, anyway. If God wanted that end result, why leave it up to choice? If Adam did what God wanted, why keep harping on it like it was a big problem, and that all of the worlds woes are a result of it?

"God, why is there evil and suffering in the world?"
"Because Adam did exactly what I wanted him to do!"

"Manufactroversy" Great word. I haven't heard that word before.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand (if there is a subject anymore). It kinda boils down to each theists interpretation of the bible and which version of the bible they are reading, which translation and so on. After a while arguing becomes senseless. It's like arguing over what a piece of poetry means that's been translated hundreds of times. It might have different things to different people as sin in the bible seems to have with the different theists on this forum.

Also, the old saying, " you can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink" applies to theists. "You can show a theist logic but you can't make them think"!

You can't make theists look at the world's other religions and myths and perhaps, just maybe, just maybe, make them realize how similar other myths are even though the myths were developed independently and separately. Somehow a theist will find some way to work it into biblical scripture, as Alla did, that way they won't ever be wrong about anything and won't have to "think".

I'm outta here. Gotta do some shopping.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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12-12-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: Sin
(12-12-2013 12:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 11:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And we know they were not. We know they we perpetrated by Muslim believers, both the planners, and the fools they roped into executing it. What an idiot response.
This is getting off topic, but there are many unanswered questions about 9-11 that make it doubtful that we are getting the full story.

You can ask a MILLION irrelevant, loaded, obtuse dumbass questions. All that makes you is a dumbass.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 11:25 PM
RE: Sin
(12-12-2013 12:54 AM)childeye Wrote:  This is getting off topic, but there are many unanswered questions about 9-11 that make it doubtful that we are getting the full story.

Since when does the king of "of-topic" care about that ?
Actually there are very few, if any "unanswered questions".
You either are very poorly informed, or just don't like the answers.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-12-2013, 03:12 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2013 03:15 PM by Alla.)
RE: Sin
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It just sounds like rather useless information. Either say what you mean or don't bother saying it. Saying something that could mean anything, yet traditionally has a common meaning is very misleading.
Not completely useless. I may not know how long one day of creation is but I do know that it takes some time for God to create/organize Earth and other things.
What if number of years of creation is so big that I don't even know this number( humans don't know this number)? What is the point then for God to give me this specific number that has no meaning to me(I can not comprehend)?

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  Prophets never set exact dates. God doesn't set exact date for the reason.
The same reason that fortune tellers are deliberately vague, I'm assuming? It makes prophesy fulfillment a heck of a lot easier, especially post hoc.
Some people(believers) use prophecies to try to prove something. It is wrong.
Prophecies are not given to prove something(for example that God is real). Prophecies are given to people that they might know what will be the consequence of their actions. So they will stop and think about it and may be change for their own sake and for the sake of future generations.
And prophecies are always conditional. If people change(repent) consequence will change also.
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That is a very interesting interpretation of it, I'll give you that. Also, a lot of begging the question.
I don't mind if you ask. I may have the answer.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Remember, the context of that was you saying that God didn't punish Eve, and me pointing to Genesis 3 saying that he did. That still looks like a punishment. You can argue that death was the natural outcome of sin, but all the extra stuff that God tacked on would be the punishment. Assuming that they are somehow rider clauses of the whole sin = death thing is begging the question.
I agree with you that you may interpret this way. Even traditional Christians see it as a punishment. But you may see it different way - FINALLY God could give them all evil that is possible so they can KNOW and BECOME like Gods.
How do Gods know evil?

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Wait: so it was vitally important to God's plan that they commit original sin? This whole thing is a manufactroversy!
I explained before that God can NOT put man who is not a sinner in the world where there is evil (including death). But it is very important that man know good and EVIL to become like Gods. So, how a man can become a sinner? He has to break at least on law and it has to be his own choice. So God has to give the law that man would break. But then He has to give another law so it wouldn't be possible to keep both of them. This way man will have to chose one over the other.
God arranged everything that man may break the law. But as He can not force perfect man to live in the world where there is evil(suffering) He can not force man to become a sinner. Man had to chose to fall by breaking the law.
If Adam and Eve didn't partake of the fruit they would live in the garden for ever and they would never become like Gods. And they would never have children(their eyes would never be opened). God could not punish them for not keeping first commandment - multiply and replenish because He can not punish for what people are NOT capable to do. And He forgave them for breaking 2nd law.
Suffering(pains) is for an OPPORTUNITY to KNOW evil. All kinds of evil.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why not just just start everything outside of the garden in the first place and leave out all mentioning of original sin from the Bible, if that's what God wanted, anyway? It's not like each and every one of us has to make the stay in the garden/be fruitful and multiply choice, anyway. If God wanted that end result, why leave it up to choice? If Adam did what God wanted, why keep harping on it like it was a big problem, and that all of the worlds woes are a result of it?
Because God can NOT force anybody to SIN.
If God forces someone to become a sinner/to sin He will become Devil.
If God creates someone or something sinful He becomes a source of evil. But He is not. He creates good and gives free agency or it calls "moral agency"
God only may use evil for His purposes. He used Devil to tempt Eve and us. This way we can have a CHOICE between good and evil.
It is very important to make those choices in order to become Gods/like Gods.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  "God, why is there evil and suffering in the world?"
"Because Adam did exactly what I wanted him to do!"
Yes. And why do men need to know evil/suffering? So they can become Gods.
If I want to be a general I have to KNOW the boot campNo. Don't I?

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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