Sin
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13-12-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Sin
(13-12-2013 03:12 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It just sounds like rather useless information. Either say what you mean or don't bother saying it. Saying something that could mean anything, yet traditionally has a common meaning is very misleading.
Not completely useless. I may not know how long one day of creation is but I do know that it takes some time for God to create/organize Earth and other things.
What if number of years of creation is so big that I don't even know this number( humans don't know this number)? What is the point then for God to give me this specific number that has no meaning to me(I can not comprehend)?

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  The same reason that fortune tellers are deliberately vague, I'm assuming? It makes prophesy fulfillment a heck of a lot easier, especially post hoc.
Some people(believers) use prophecies to try to prove something. It is wrong.
Prophecies are not given to prove something(for example that God is real). Prophecies are given to people that they might know what will be the consequence of their actions. So they will stop and think about it and may be change for their own sake and for the sake of future generations.
And prophecies are always conditional. If people change(repent) consequence will change also.
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That is a very interesting interpretation of it, I'll give you that. Also, a lot of begging the question.
I don't mind if you ask. I may have the answer.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Remember, the context of that was you saying that God didn't punish Eve, and me pointing to Genesis 3 saying that he did. That still looks like a punishment. You can argue that death was the natural outcome of sin, but all the extra stuff that God tacked on would be the punishment. Assuming that they are somehow rider clauses of the whole sin = death thing is begging the question.
I agree with you that you may interpret this way. Even traditional Christians see it as a punishment. But you may see it different way - FINALLY God could give them all evil that is possible so they can KNOW and BECOME like Gods.
How do Gods know evil?

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Wait: so it was vitally important to God's plan that they commit original sin? This whole thing is a manufactroversy!
I explained before that God can NOT put man who is not a sinner in the world where there is evil (including death). But it is very important that man know good and EVIL to become like Gods. So, how can a man become a sinner? He has to break at least one law and it has to be his own choice. So God has to give the law that man would break. But then He has to give another law so it wouldn't be possible to keep both of them. This way man will have to chose one over the other.
God arranged everything that man may break the law. But as He can not force perfect man to live in the world where there is evil(suffering) He can not force man to become a sinner. Man had to chose to fall by breaking the law.
If Adam and Eve didn't partake of the fruit they would live in the garden for ever and they would never become like Gods. And they would never have children(their eyes would never be opened). God could not punish them for not keeping first commandment - multiply and replenish because He can not punish for what people are NOT capable to do. And He forgave them for breaking 2nd law.
Suffering(pains) is for an OPPORTUNITY to KNOW evil. All kinds of evil.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why not just just start everything outside of the garden in the first place and leave out all mentioning of original sin from the Bible, if that's what God wanted, anyway? It's not like each and every one of us has to make the stay in the garden/be fruitful and multiply choice, anyway. If God wanted that end result, why leave it up to choice? If Adam did what God wanted, why keep harping on it like it was a big problem, and that all of the worlds woes are a result of it?
Because God can NOT force anybody to SIN.
If God forces someone to become a sinner/to sin He will become Devil.
If God creates someone or something sinful He becomes a source of evil. But He is not. He creates good and gives free agency or it calls "moral agency"
God only may use evil for His purposes. He used Devil to tempt Eve and us. This way we can have a CHOICE between good and evil.
It is very important to make those choices in order to become Gods/like Gods.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  "God, why is there evil and suffering in the world?"
"Because Adam did exactly what I wanted him to do!"
Yes. And why do men need to know evil/suffering? So they can become Gods.
If I want to be a general I have to KNOW the boot campNo. Don't I?

English is not my native language.
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13-12-2013, 03:20 PM
RE: Sin
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It just sounds like rather useless information. Either say what you mean or don't bother saying it. Saying something that could mean anything, yet traditionally has a common meaning is very misleading.
Not completely useless. I may not know how long one day of creation is but I do know that it takes some time for God to create/organize Earth and other things.
What if number of years of creation is so big that I don't even know this number( humans don't know this number)? What is the point then for God to give me this specific number that has no meaning to me(I can not comprehend)?

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  The same reason that fortune tellers are deliberately vague, I'm assuming? It makes prophesy fulfillment a heck of a lot easier, especially post hoc.
Some people(believers) use prophecies to try to prove something. It is wrong.
Prophecies are not given to prove something(for example that God is real). Prophecies are given to people that they might know what will be the consequence of their actions. So they will stop and think about it and may be change for their own sake and for the sake of future generations.
And prophecies are always conditional. If people change(repent) consequence will change also.
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That is a very interesting interpretation of it, I'll give you that. Also, a lot of begging the question.
I don't mind if you ask. I may have the answer.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Remember, the context of that was you saying that God didn't punish Eve, and me pointing to Genesis 3 saying that he did. That still looks like a punishment. You can argue that death was the natural outcome of sin, but all the extra stuff that God tacked on would be the punishment. Assuming that they are somehow rider clauses of the whole sin = death thing is begging the question.
I agree with you that you may interpret this way. Even traditional Christians see it as a punishment. But you may see it different way - FINALLY God could give them all evil that is possible so they can KNOW and BECOME like Gods.
How do Gods know evil?

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Wait: so it was vitally important to God's plan that they commit original sin? This whole thing is a manufactroversy!
I explained before that God can NOT put man who is not a sinner in the world where there is evil (including death). But it is very important that man know good and EVIL to become like Gods. So, how can a man become a sinner? He has to break at least one law and it has to be his own choice. So God has to give the law that man would break. But then He has to give another law so it wouldn't be possible to keep both of them. This way man will have to chose one over the other.
God arranged everything that man may break the law. But as He can not force perfect man to live in the world where there is evil(suffering) He can not force man to become a sinner. Man had to chose to fall by breaking the law.
If Adam and Eve didn't partake of the fruit they would live in the garden for ever and they would never become like Gods. And they would never have children(their eyes would never be opened). God could not punish them for not keeping first commandment - multiply and replenish because He can not punish for what people are NOT capable to do. And He forgave them for breaking 2nd law.
Suffering(pains) is an OPPORTUNITY to KNOW evil. All kinds of evil.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why not just just start everything outside of the garden in the first place and leave out all mentioning of original sin from the Bible, if that's what God wanted, anyway? It's not like each and every one of us has to make the stay in the garden/be fruitful and multiply choice, anyway. If God wanted that end result, why leave it up to choice? If Adam did what God wanted, why keep harping on it like it was a big problem, and that all of the worlds woes are a result of it?
Because God can NOT force anybody to SIN.
If God forces someone to become a sinner/to sin He will become Devil.
If God creates someone or something sinful He becomes a source of evil. But He is not. He creates good and gives free agency or it calls "moral agency"
God only may use evil for His purposes. He used Devil to tempt Eve and us. This way we can have a CHOICE between good and evil.
It is very important to make those choices in order to become Gods/like Gods.

(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  "God, why is there evil and suffering in the world?"
"Because Adam did exactly what I wanted him to do!"
Yes. And why do men need to know evil/suffering? So they can become Gods.
If I want to be a general I have to KNOW the boot campNo. Don't I?
[/quote]

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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13-12-2013, 07:50 PM
RE: Sin
(13-12-2013 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  "God, why is there evil and suffering in the world?"
"Because Adam did exactly what I wanted him to do!"
Yes. And why do men need to know evil/suffering? So they can become Gods.
If I want to be a general I have to KNOW the boot campNo. Don't I?

Not really; you just need a solid grasp of tactics and strategy and a vast understanding of the forces and equipment you have available to you for deployment, the lower downs should be able to deal with organising and running efficient training camps, leaving you time for other matters. If your subordinates can't do their jobs, you need new subordinates: only the competent should be promoted.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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14-12-2013, 09:31 AM
RE: Sin
(13-12-2013 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That is a very interesting interpretation of it, I'll give you that. Also, a lot of begging the question.
I don't mind if you ask. I may have the answer.

That doesn't mean I have a question for you. Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning where you start with a conclusion, then use that assumed conclusion to form the premise for your argument. You then use that premise to attempt to prove the (already assumed) conclusion.

Typically, you start with a provable premise and then draw a conclusion from that, not the other way around.


(13-12-2013 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 10:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Wait: so it was vitally important to God's plan that they commit original sin? This whole thing is a manufactroversy!
I explained before that God can NOT put man who is not a sinner in the world where there is evil (including death). But it is very important that man know good and EVIL to become like Gods. So, how can a man become a sinner? He has to break at least one law and it has to be his own choice. So God has to give the law that man would break. But then He has to give another law so it wouldn't be possible to keep both of them. This way man will have to chose one over the other.
God arranged everything that man may break the law. But as He can not force perfect man to live in the world where there is evil(suffering) He can not force man to become a sinner. Man had to chose to fall by breaking the law.
If Adam and Eve didn't partake of the fruit they would live in the garden for ever and they would never become like Gods. And they would never have children(their eyes would never be opened). God could not punish them for not keeping first commandment - multiply and replenish because He can not punish for what people are NOT capable to do. And He forgave them for breaking 2nd law.
Suffering(pains) is an OPPORTUNITY to KNOW evil. All kinds of evil.

On that topic, here's a great example of you begging the question. You assume a conclusion and use that conclusion to form your premise.
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14-12-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Sin
(14-12-2013 09:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(13-12-2013 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't mind if you ask. I may have the answer.

That doesn't mean I have a question for you. Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning where you start with a conclusion, then use that assumed conclusion to form the premise for your argument. You then use that premise to attempt to prove the (already assumed) conclusion.

Typically, you start with a provable premise and then draw a conclusion from that, not the other way around.


(13-12-2013 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  I explained before that God can NOT put man who is not a sinner in the world where there is evil (including death). But it is very important that man know good and EVIL to become like Gods. So, how can a man become a sinner? He has to break at least one law and it has to be his own choice. So God has to give the law that man would break. But then He has to give another law so it wouldn't be possible to keep both of them. This way man will have to chose one over the other.
God arranged everything that man may break the law. But as He can not force perfect man to live in the world where there is evil(suffering) He can not force man to become a sinner. Man had to chose to fall by breaking the law.
If Adam and Eve didn't partake of the fruit they would live in the garden for ever and they would never become like Gods. And they would never have children(their eyes would never be opened). God could not punish them for not keeping first commandment - multiply and replenish because He can not punish for what people are NOT capable to do. And He forgave them for breaking 2nd law.
Suffering(pains) is an OPPORTUNITY to KNOW evil. All kinds of evil.

On that topic, here's a great example of you begging the question. You assume a conclusion and use that conclusion to form your premise.
OK. I got it. Oh, and thanks for the explanation.Smile
What do you think God meant when He said that their eyes were not opened/they didn't see that they were naked?

English is not my native language.
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14-12-2013, 01:54 PM
RE: Sin
sorry, double post

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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14-12-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: Sin
(14-12-2013 01:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 09:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That doesn't mean I have a question for you. Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning where you start with a conclusion, then use that assumed conclusion to form the premise for your argument. You then use that premise to attempt to prove the (already assumed) conclusion.

Typically, you start with a provable premise and then draw a conclusion from that, not the other way around.



On that topic, here's a great example of you begging the question. You assume a conclusion and use that conclusion to form your premise.
OK. I got it. Oh, and thanks for the explanation.Smile
What do you think God meant when He said that their eyes were not opened/they didn't see that they were naked?

I have no proof that god ever said that or anything else for that matter.
Alla - why are you here? To try and convert atheists??

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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14-12-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Sin
(14-12-2013 01:57 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Alla - why are you here? To try and convert atheists??
I see some "hard" questions. I like to give some answers. That's all.

English is not my native language.
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14-12-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: Sin
(14-12-2013 01:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  What do you think God meant when He said that their eyes were not opened/they didn't see that they were naked?

Personally? I see it as bad storytelling that doesn't make sense. The tree was supposed to give them knowledge of good and evil, and somehow, they found out that being naked was bad. It seems like something tacked on in the middle of the story as an afterthought.
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14-12-2013, 04:19 PM
RE: Sin
(14-12-2013 02:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 01:57 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Alla - why are you here? To try and convert atheists??
I see some "hard" questions. I like to give some answers. That's all.

Why do you suppose is the most compelling evidence of God's existence?
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