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09-12-2013, 11:02 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 09:13 PM)natachan Wrote:  I was Catholic, and Catholics are HUGE on original sin. We are guilty of the sin of Adam, the original sin that was the gaining of sentience. But wait! For Catholics it gets better! The act of sex, of lust, is a sin. You are therefore conceived in sin, and guilty of that sin of conception. You are guilty for the sin that is the pain you bring your mother when you are born. You are guilty because you took nourishment from your parents.

Proddies used to ask me what it was like going to a Christian Buggers, I mean, Brothers school. I'd say it was like being an out-patient at Auschwitz. You were tortured horribly, even fucked*, all day long but as night time you got to go home to sleep.

* not me, evidently I was too fucking ugly! Sadcryface2 Sadcryface2
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09-12-2013, 11:06 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 07:17 PM)natachan Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that I simply don't get the creationist mindset, and never will. One of the big issues that comes up is SIN.

Yes, that's right, the big one. SIN. Growing up I was always warned about sin. Eating meat on Friday was a sin, wearing jeans and tennis shoes to mass was a sin, cursing at the neighbor kids when they cheated was a sin, cheating back after they cheated was a sin, premarital sex was a sin, etc. But it was never really explained what sin actually WAS. Not down to the root of it anyway. So I went and looked it up.

Sin is essentially broken down as such, directly disobeying God and actions that distract from God or that are not actions taken by a "perfect being." The first is fairly straight forward, directly disobeying God's laws. OK. First we must define what God we are talking about, and that's a bit more difficult than you might think. If we define God as "the best in ourselves" then there's no problem. Sin would be anything that goes against that which is good within you. Stealing, murder, rape, all sins and I would agree all evil. But if we define God as the God of the Bible then everything is permitted so long as God commands it. God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son and Abraham goes to obey. God commands rape and murder, and the Isrealites obey. God commands the killing of people who don't worship him, deems them as worse than human beings. I don't accept this. I have never accepted "because I say so" as a valid reason for anything (pity my poor parents). God does not get away with it either. He does not get to put one set of laws for some people and another for a different group of people just "because he says so." That's not a valid reason. The apologists will say that they were corrupt. How? Were there not moral people among the non-believers then? Are there not non-believers now who are perfectly moral? What right does anyone, even God, have to condemn anyone for private thoughts?

The second type is those sins that distract from God or take away from the state of a perfect being. These are "sins that arise from every day living." This irritates me on another level. It is a sin to eat, since it distracts from God and is a pleasure of the flesh. Yet we eat in order to live, in order to sustain our lives. To not eat is to commit suicide, which is also a sin. It is a sin to feel ambition, yet it is ambition that drives us to seek to live in this world. It is a sin to feel lust or love for another human being, and yet this is one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Bottom line: in order to sustain and enjoy the precious gift which is our life we must live in sin. We are damned for our life and our love of our lives.

I reject this. I reject it wholeheartedly. I refuse to accept that I am guilty simply for having that one most precious gift of all, my life. I refuse to accept that my love of this world is what damns me. But this isn't what irritates me the most.

Original. Sin.

This is the most atrocious doctrine of all. The idea that we are guilty for something that we had no control over. "The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons." We are guilty due to the actions of others whom we have and can have no say in. We are damned, not for our own actions and crimes, but for the actions of others long dead. And in order to repent we must rely on the murder of a man who committed no crime. We must offer to death and torture a man who did nothing wrong in order to pay for the crimes of others.

This is THE MOST repellant doctrine of all. I am NOT, nor is anyone else, responsible for the actions of others. We cannot be. A person can only be responsible for their own actions. Any God who damns a person for an action that they DID NOT CHOOSE is monstrously unjust. Any God that demands the murder of an innocent to appease the crimes of others is beyond unjust. I do not take blame that is not mine, and I do not engage in human sacrifices. If there was a Jesus it was monstrously unjust to murder him and I will take no benefit from that. I will not allow anyone else to pay for my crimes.

Sorry for the rant.

There's no need to apologize. Thumbsup


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10-12-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 07:17 PM)natachan Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that I simply don't get the creationist mindset, and never will. One of the big issues that comes up is SIN.

Yes, that's right, the big one. SIN. Growing up I was always warned about sin. Eating meat on Friday was a sin, wearing jeans and tennis shoes to mass was a sin, cursing at the neighbor kids when they cheated was a sin, cheating back after they cheated was a sin, premarital sex was a sin, etc. But it was never really explained what sin actually WAS. Not down to the root of it anyway. So I went and looked it up.

Sin is essentially broken down as such, directly disobeying God and actions that distract from God or that are not actions taken by a "perfect being." The first is fairly straight forward, directly disobeying God's laws. OK. First we must define what God we are talking about, and that's a bit more difficult than you might think. If we define God as "the best in ourselves" then there's no problem. Sin would be anything that goes against that which is good within you. Stealing, murder, rape, all sins and I would agree all evil. But if we define God as the God of the Bible then everything is permitted so long as God commands it. God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son and Abraham goes to obey. God commands rape and murder, and the Isrealites obey. God commands the killing of people who don't worship him, deems them as worse than human beings. I don't accept this. I have never accepted "because I say so" as a valid reason for anything (pity my poor parents). God does not get away with it either. He does not get to put one set of laws for some people and another for a different group of people just "because he says so." That's not a valid reason. The apologists will say that they were corrupt. How? Were there not moral people among the non-believers then? Are there not non-believers now who are perfectly moral? What right does anyone, even God, have to condemn anyone for private thoughts?

The second type is those sins that distract from God or take away from the state of a perfect being. These are "sins that arise from every day living." This irritates me on another level. It is a sin to eat, since it distracts from God and is a pleasure of the flesh. Yet we eat in order to live, in order to sustain our lives. To not eat is to commit suicide, which is also a sin. It is a sin to feel ambition, yet it is ambition that drives us to seek to live in this world. It is a sin to feel lust or love for another human being, and yet this is one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Bottom line: in order to sustain and enjoy the precious gift which is our life we must live in sin. We are damned for our life and our love of our lives.

I reject this. I reject it wholeheartedly. I refuse to accept that I am guilty simply for having that one most precious gift of all, my life. I refuse to accept that my love of this world is what damns me. But this isn't what irritates me the most.

Original. Sin.

This is the most atrocious doctrine of all. The idea that we are guilty for something that we had no control over. "The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons." We are guilty due to the actions of others whom we have and can have no say in. We are damned, not for our own actions and crimes, but for the actions of others long dead. And in order to repent we must rely on the murder of a man who committed no crime. We must offer to death and torture a man who did nothing wrong in order to pay for the crimes of others.

This is THE MOST repellant doctrine of all. I am NOT, nor is anyone else, responsible for the actions of others. We cannot be. A person can only be responsible for their own actions. Any God who damns a person for an action that they DID NOT CHOOSE is monstrously unjust. Any God that demands the murder of an innocent to appease the crimes of others is beyond unjust. I do not take blame that is not mine, and I do not engage in human sacrifices. If there was a Jesus it was monstrously unjust to murder him and I will take no benefit from that. I will not allow anyone else to pay for my crimes.

Sorry for the rant.
Good post and I agree that original sin is the worst. To add to what you said, here's what really gets me about it. Anyone that believes in the Adam and Eve fable believes that God is omniscient including knowing everything that will happen in the future. So, according to them, God created Adam and Eve in an imperfect state where they could succumb to temptation. Then, knowing they would do exactly that, he placed them in the Garden of Eden near the very tree they were then told not to eat from. So, the bottom line is, he set them up for failure. But, that wasn't even enough. He then allowed Satan to get involved thereby increasing the whole temptation. Adam and Eve never stood a chance! And what was the price for their doing exactly what, by design, they couldn't help? All the imperfections in the world and, not only for themselves, but for all of their descendants and their descendants and their descendants... Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, disease, poverty, hard labor, painful pregnancy, living things feeding off of one another, etc.

By comparison, what if you had a child and you placed them next to a cookie jar and said, "Don't eat any of those cookies"? You then left the room and the child took a cookie from the jar and ate it. How severely do you think they would be punished? Probably just a scolding or maybe taking away a toy for a little while.

What an evil god! How do people not see this especially when someone points it out to them? How do they just close their eyes and cover their ears muttering "our limited minds just can't understand God's infinite one". Ohmy

Besides, if I'm going to get punished for it, at least give me a piece of the fruit! Tongue

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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10-12-2013, 12:00 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 10:44 AM)Impulse Wrote:  By comparison, what if you had a child and you placed them next to a cookie jar and said, "Don't eat any of those cookies"? You then left the room and the child took a cookie from the jar and ate it. How severely do you think they would be punished? Probably just a scolding or maybe taking away a toy for a little while.
Or maybe you'd spare the child any punishment, admit that it was your own fault, realise that it's just a cookie and there is no harm done. Not be too worried that your kid thinks for themselves rather than does as they are told. Then maybe move the cookie jar out of reach.
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10-12-2013, 12:00 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 08:02 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 07:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  Indeed it is false doctrine that we are guilty for something we didn't do or we have no control over.

Its the very foundation of your Beligion. You didn't think this through, did you.
It may be a foundation of false religions. Prophets of God don't teach that children of Adam and Eve are guilty of Adam's sin. May be you can tell me which Prophet of God teaches this?

English is not my native language.
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10-12-2013, 12:12 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 08:30 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  I have to agree with Taq here. I mean, the reason child birth is painful, the reason women have periods, and having lust for our husbands are all punishment for eve's original sin according to the bible.
where did Prophet Moses said it is a punishment?
How about it is a consequence of becoming mortals? As I said before if pregnant woman uses drugs and her child become an addict or born sick he is not guilty of anything it is just a horrible consequence of mothers wrong/bad/evil choice.
Painful childbirth is consequence of becoming mortal. Their body had to be changed. Why? So they can really(from their experience) learn about evil.
To feel pain is evil and they chose to learn about evil and good when they chose to partake of fruit.

(09-12-2013 08:30 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  If you don't agree with the bible, and the bible is the only thing that says your god is real.... Confused
Bible doesn't say that painful child birth is punishment. Not even one word. But Bible says that punishment for sin is death. They died. The rest is just part of learning about all evil and all good. That what they wanted - to learn about evil and good. They got it.

English is not my native language.
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10-12-2013, 12:19 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 12:12 PM)Alla Wrote:  Bible doesn't say that painful child birth is punishment. Not even one word.
Have you read the bible?

Quote:Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
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10-12-2013, 12:20 PM
RE: Sin
Yes. Yes it does. KJV, Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
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10-12-2013, 12:20 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 12:12 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 08:30 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  If you don't agree with the bible, and the bible is the only thing that says your god is real.... Confused
Bible doesn't say that painful child birth is punishment. Not even one word. But Bible says that punishment for sin is death. They died. The rest is just part of learning about all evil and all good. That what they wanted - to learn about evil and good. They got it.

From Genesis 3:

Quote:13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”


14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.

Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
(Emphasis mine)

It's pretty well set up that Eve admits do sinning in Gen 3:13, and Gen 3:14-19 is God listing the repercussions of it. He even uses the word "because" multiple times.


Edit: Double ninja'd! Nice job, guys!
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10-12-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 12:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  It may be a foundation of false religions. Prophets of God don't teach that children of Adam and Eve are guilty of Adam's sin. May be you can tell me which Prophet of God teaches this?

Well this is new!

The bible teaches original sin. Are you saying that the word of the bible is the foundation of a false religion? Are you saying that the word of god has changed, and we must now go by the word of the prophets? If there was no inherited sin, why did Jesus die for our sins? You sound like a theist who has a hard time accepting your religion as-is, and has thus reinterpreted it to suit you better. I didn't know that was allowed.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

1 Peter 1:25
but the word of the Lord endures forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

Psalm 89:2
I will declare that your love stands firm forever, that you have established your faithfulness in heaven itself.

Psalm 119:88
In your unfailing love preserve my life, that I may obey the statutes of your mouth.

Psalm 119:152
Long ago I learned from your statutes that you established them to last forever.

Psalm 119:160
All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever."

So god's word is true and eternal... until it needs to be changed by his followers. Interesting...

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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