Sin
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-12-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 03:21 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  His Creation are perfect. But perfection can be destroyed. Make a perfect shape. It will be perfect until something destroys it. Adam was perfect when he was created.

Because Adam chose to learn about evil and good. Imperfection is part of evil. Adam had to learn about this evil, too. It was his choice.
Because it must be opposition in all things.

He created perfect Adam and Eve and gave them freedom to become imperfect and that was His plan.

We are not more powerful. God's plan worked. Adam fell.

Ah. So then, Alla, original sin come down to the "free will" problem and the paradox that always follows. Which god do you worship, the omniscience or omnipotent god? Or does your deity possess both powers? Or aren't you allowed to understand your god in this manner?


Also, Alla, as you say, and I quote, "He created perfect Adam and Eve and gave them freedom to become imperfect and that was his plan". Then your admitting that your deity had a plan and is omniscient, knowing in advance the outcome of the apple story. If this is a loving god and he knew what would happen before it happened then he can't hold Eve responsible for something she couldn't do any differently.

If your god had a "plan" to redeem them later then the "original sin" you speak of is actually god's making certainly not Adams. Adam and Eve couldn't have chosen any other route because in doing so would have gone against this particular deity's plan.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 03:54 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 02:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 12:31 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were originally immortal and then became mortal due to sin? Drinking Beverage
Bible says that death is result of the sin. If they(Adam and Eve) never sinned they would never have result - death. Death can not enter when there is no sin.
As God said that they would die the same day they partake of the fruit they did die the same day.
And that was part of God's plan of salvation or plan of happiness. Fall of Adam is part of the plan of God. It is a blessing. If Adam didn't fall he wouldn't have children.
More unsubstantiated claims. My question was where in the Bible...
Chapter and verse(s) please.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 04:02 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 03:34 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 03:21 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  I'm wondering where you get this from? To say that the fall of man was part of God's plan implies that God went through the trouble of creation and making man in His image just to watch them fail. Why would He do that? Salvation is about bringing us back into the original relationship with God so why would He plan for that to be disturbed in the first place?
To make a more complete revelation of himself - to let us know him more fully. For example, I wouldn't know God as savior if I never needed to be saved.
My what a tangled web we weave! If you didn't need to be saved, you wouldn't care about knowing him as a savior. And why is it that you need to be saved? Oh yeah, because God put you and everyone else in that position (by your own account). If I sent a bunch of dogs to attack you and then ran over and saved you from them after they chewed your hands off, would I also be your hero? Consider

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 04:02 PM)Impulse Wrote:  My what a tangled web we weave! If you didn't need to be saved, you wouldn't care about knowing him as a savior. And why is it that you need to be saved? Oh yeah, because God put you and everyone else in that position (by your own account). If I sent a bunch of dogs to attack you and then ran over and saved you from them after they chewed your hands off, would I also be your hero? Consider

But if God didn't create us so that we needed to be saved from him then he wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself for being the way he made us.

Checkmate, atheists!

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
10-12-2013, 04:07 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 03:54 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  Bible says that death is result of the sin. If they(Adam and Eve) never sinned they would never have result - death. Death can not enter when there is no sin.
As God said that they would die the same day they partake of the fruit they did die the same day.
And that was part of God's plan of salvation or plan of happiness. Fall of Adam is part of the plan of God. It is a blessing. If Adam didn't fall he wouldn't have children.
More unsubstantiated claims. My question was where in the Bible...
Chapter and verse(s) please.

Alla, your god has a big problem. If happiness and salvation is part of this particular god's plan then he is either an ass hole for putting his own creations through horrible pain, knowing in advance what Adam and Eve would choose. Or the flip side is that he didn't know for sure what Adam and Eve would do in the garden which makes him a not so powerful god and not worth worshiping.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 04:13 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 04:04 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:02 PM)Impulse Wrote:  My what a tangled web we weave! If you didn't need to be saved, you wouldn't care about knowing him as a savior. And why is it that you need to be saved? Oh yeah, because God put you and everyone else in that position (by your own account). If I sent a bunch of dogs to attack you and then ran over and saved you from them after they chewed your hands off, would I also be your hero? Consider

But if God didn't create us so that we needed to be saved from him then he wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself for being the way he made us.

Checkmate, atheists!
Ah, so then God is a masochist! Makes perfect sense now. Thumbsup

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 04:22 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 04:02 PM)Impulse Wrote:  My what a tangled web we weave! If you didn't need to be saved, you wouldn't care about knowing him as a savior. And why is it that you need to be saved? Oh yeah, because God put you and everyone else in that position (by your own account). If I sent a bunch of dogs to attack you and then ran over and saved you from them after they chewed your hands off, would I also be your hero? Consider
I don't blame God for my sin, so a better analogy would be that I walked right into a pack of dogs and they attacked me. If you came and saved me, I would be grateful, and if you were injured or killed in the process, yes, you would be my hero.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 04:24 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 04:04 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:02 PM)Impulse Wrote:  My what a tangled web we weave! If you didn't need to be saved, you wouldn't care about knowing him as a savior. And why is it that you need to be saved? Oh yeah, because God put you and everyone else in that position (by your own account). If I sent a bunch of dogs to attack you and then ran over and saved you from them after they chewed your hands off, would I also be your hero? Consider

But if God didn't create us so that we needed to be saved from him then he wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself for being the way he made us.

Checkmate, atheists!

Hey, can I use that sentence the next time a JW comes to the door? It's perfection!

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes dancefortwo's post
10-12-2013, 04:37 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 03:52 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Ah. So then, Alla, original sin come down to the "free will" problem and the paradox that always follows. Which god do you worship, the omniscience or omnipotent god? Or does your deity possess both powers? Or aren't you allowed to understand your god in this manner?
God knows His children. Why? Because He knew us before we came here. He knew Adam and Eve before they came on Earth. He knew that there was a big chance that they will partake of the fruit/make right choice.
Parents can predict behavior of their children in different situations because they know their children. Adam has freedom to choose. He was not forced.

(10-12-2013 03:52 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Also, Alla, as you say, and I quote, "He created perfect Adam and Eve and gave them freedom to become imperfect and that was his plan". Then your admitting that your deity had a plan and is omniscient, knowing in advance the outcome of the apple story. If this is a loving god and he knew what would happen before it happened then he can't hold Eve responsible for something she couldn't do any differently.
She could do differently. She could chose not to partake. When there is freedom to choose or moral agency God may have surprises.:Pleasant surprises or sad surprises. God can predict what we choose but He knows for sure AFTER we make a choice.
Remember what God said about Abraham: "NOW I know that Abraham will do what I say".
The point of moral agency is that God and we WILL know FOR SURE what our choices will be.

(10-12-2013 03:52 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  If your god had a "plan" to redeem them later then the "original sin" you speak of is actually god's making certainly not Adams. Adam and Eve couldn't have chosen any other route because in doing so would have gone against this particular deity's plan.
They could. They could choose not to partake, plan wouldn't be accomplished and Adam and Eve would live in the garden forever.
But God knew whom He sent to do this mission- to be first humans on this earth.

This is what you don't see. Did you notice that God gave them 2 commandments?
First commandment is multiply and replenish
Second commandment is not partaking of the fruit
I hope you did. But do you know that is was NOT possible to keep one commandment without breaking the other?
They could choose not to partake of fruit and have no children/breaking commandment multiply and replenish.
or they could choose multiply and replenish by breaking first second commandment(partake of fruit).

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 04:40 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 02:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 12:31 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were originally immortal and then became mortal due to sin? Drinking Beverage
Bible says that death is result of the sin. If they(Adam and Eve) never sinned they would never have result - death. Death can not enter when there is no sin.
As God said that they would die the same day they partake of the fruit they did die the same day.
And that was part of God's plan of salvation or plan of happiness. Fall of Adam is part of the plan of God. It is a blessing. If Adam didn't fall he wouldn't have children.

Where in the Bible does it say death is the result of sin?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: