Sin
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-12-2013, 05:31 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 05:05 PM)Impulse Wrote:  No, the true analogy is you sinned and that's why I sent the dogs to attack you.
Wrong. You sinned that is why you can learn about good and evil and become like Gods.
It is good to be gods. it is better to become like Gods.
Garden of Eden forever is good but there is something much better. To get there(to a better place) you have to learn about good and evil.

(10-12-2013 05:05 PM)Impulse Wrote:  But you should blame God for your sin if you really believe in him. He set you up for failure by putting your ancestors, Adam and Eve, right next to the forbidden tree knowing full well they would eat from it and the consequences he would dish out would fall on you the same as every other human.
I thank Father Adam and Mother Eve for making right choice. Because of them I could come to this Earth(to have physical body) and learn good and evil(become like Gods)

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 06:24 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 04:37 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 03:52 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Ah. So then, Alla, original sin come down to the "free will" problem and the paradox that always follows. Which god do you worship, the omniscience or omnipotent god? Or does your deity possess both powers? Or aren't you allowed to understand your god in this manner?
God knows His children. Why? Because He knew us before we came here. He knew Adam and Eve before they came on Earth. He knew that there was a big chance that they will partake of the fruit/make right choice.
Parents can predict behavior of their children in different situations because they know their children. Adam has freedom to choose. He was not forced.

(10-12-2013 03:52 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Also, Alla, as you say, and I quote, "He created perfect Adam and Eve and gave them freedom to become imperfect and that was his plan". Then your admitting that your deity had a plan and is omniscient, knowing in advance the outcome of the apple story. If this is a loving god and he knew what would happen before it happened then he can't hold Eve responsible for something she couldn't do any differently.
She could do differently. She could chose not to partake. When there is freedom to choose or moral agency God may have surprises.:Pleasant surprises or sad surprises. God can predict what we choose but He knows for sure AFTER we make a choice.
Remember what God said about Abraham: "NOW I know that Abraham will do what I say".
The point of moral agency is that God and we WILL know FOR SURE what our choices will be.

(10-12-2013 03:52 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  If your god had a "plan" to redeem them later then the "original sin" you speak of is actually god's making certainly not Adams. Adam and Eve couldn't have chosen any other route because in doing so would have gone against this particular deity's plan.
They could. They could choose not to partake, plan wouldn't be accomplished and Adam and Eve would live in the garden forever.
But God knew whom He sent to do this mission- to be first humans on this earth.

This is what you don't see. Did you notice that God gave them 2 commandments?
First commandment is multiply and replenish
Second commandment is not partaking of the fruit
I hope you did. But do you know that is was NOT possible to keep one commandment without breaking the other?
They could choose not to partake of fruit and have no children/breaking commandment multiply and replenish.
or they could choose multiply and replenish by breaking first second commandment(partake of fruit).

I'm so glad you mentioned this! Because therein lies the problem with your supposed loving god, Alla. Adam and Eve are between a rock and a hard place with no choice but to break a commandment and/or go against the will of your god. This makes your god evil. There is no way to reconcile these choices.

This is probably one of the main reasons I reject your religion. (Well, that and the fact that there is no evidence for the existence of any kind of god.) But were there a god who existed and loved this universe and it's creations this god shouldn't be giving two people something of a "Sophie's Choice" on day one of their life and then punish them and all mankind for any choice they make.

As for "their sins will be the same as mine" concept . My great-great-grandfather owned a whore house in Old San Francisco during the 1860's. Alla, there is no legal court in the civilized world that would convict me for something my great-great- grandfathers did in 1860. I wouldn't be thrown in jail and I wouldn't need to repent for his mistake. In short, I am not responsible for what my great grand father did 150 years ago. Civil courts the world over have recognized this concept for hundreds of years, that children and grandchildren are not to be blamed for their ancestors mistakes. The world is a more civilized and decent place to live in because of it too.

But you and your ilk still hang onto this "sins of the father" concept . The idea that we, today are responsible for something Adam and Eve did in a book 4 to 6000 years ago, which this god of yours made inevitable from the get-go, is ludicrous. It's sick. It's completely uncivilized in every way and would never hold up in any court of law in any country on this planet. And if the god you believe in requires some sort of restitution for a god concocted, pre-conceived mistake then your god is an uncivilized, horrifying, evil entity and isn't worth the time of day.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I'm so glad you mentioned this! Because therein lies the problem with your supposed loving god, Alla. Adam and Eve are between a rock and a hard place with no choice but to break a commandment and/or go against the will of your god. This makes your god evil. There is no way to reconcile these choices.
It would make Him evil if He punished them. He gave them a choice and no matter what choice they would make they wouldn't be punished.
And if they break first commandment they would make good choice. Result - good life
If they broke second commandment they would make a better choice. Result - opportunity to have better life.

(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This is probably one of the main reasons I reject your religion.
My religion doesn't teach what you think it teaches.

(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  But were there a god who existed and loved this universe and it's creations this god shouldn't be giving two people something of a "Sophie's Choice" on day one of their life and then punish them and all mankind for any choice they make.
I agree. And He didn't punish anybody.


(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  As for "their sins will be the same as mine" concept . My great-great-grandfather owned a whore house in Old San Francisco during the 1860's. Alla, there is no legal court in the civilized world that would convict me for something my great-great- grandfathers did in 1860. I wouldn't be thrown in jail and I wouldn't need to repent for his mistake. In short, I am not responsible for what my great grand father did 150 years ago. Civil courts the world over have recognized this concept for hundreds of years, that children and grandchildren are not to be blamed for their ancestors mistakes. The world is a more civilized and decent place to live in because of it too.

But you and your ilk still hang onto this "sins of the father" concept . The idea that we, today are responsible for something Adam and Eve did in a book 4 to 6000 years ago, which this god of yours made inevitable from the get-go, is ludicrous. It's sick. It's completely uncivilized in every way and would never hold up in any court of law in any country on this planet. And if the god you believe in requires some sort of restitution for a god concocted, pre-conceived mistake then your god is an uncivilized, horrifying, evil entity and isn't worth the time of day.
I don't hang on this concept. This concept is false and Prophets (even biblical Prophets) do not teach this false concept.
Nobody is punished for sins od Adam. You will be accountable only for your own sins. God didn't punish Adam and He didn't punish you for Adams GREAT/RIGHT choice

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 07:07 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 06:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I'm so glad you mentioned this! Because therein lies the problem with your supposed loving god, Alla. Adam and Eve are between a rock and a hard place with no choice but to break a commandment and/or go against the will of your god. This makes your god evil. There is no way to reconcile these choices.
It would make Him evil if He punished them. He gave them a choice and no matter what choice they would make they wouldn't be punished.
And if they break first commandment they would make good choice. Result - good life
If they broke second commandment they would make a better choice. Result - opportunity to have better life.

(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This is probably one of the main reasons I reject your religion.
My religion doesn't teach what you think it teaches.

(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  But were there a god who existed and loved this universe and it's creations this god shouldn't be giving two people something of a "Sophie's Choice" on day one of their life and then punish them and all mankind for any choice they make.
I agree. And He didn't punish anybody.


(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  As for "their sins will be the same as mine" concept . My great-great-grandfather owned a whore house in Old San Francisco during the 1860's. Alla, there is no legal court in the civilized world that would convict me for something my great-great- grandfathers did in 1860. I wouldn't be thrown in jail and I wouldn't need to repent for his mistake. In short, I am not responsible for what my great grand father did 150 years ago. Civil courts the world over have recognized this concept for hundreds of years, that children and grandchildren are not to be blamed for their ancestors mistakes. The world is a more civilized and decent place to live in because of it too.

But you and your ilk still hang onto this "sins of the father" concept . The idea that we, today are responsible for something Adam and Eve did in a book 4 to 6000 years ago, which this god of yours made inevitable from the get-go, is ludicrous. It's sick. It's completely uncivilized in every way and would never hold up in any court of law in any country on this planet. And if the god you believe in requires some sort of restitution for a god concocted, pre-conceived mistake then your god is an uncivilized, horrifying, evil entity and isn't worth the time of day.
I don't hang on this concept. This concept is false and Prophets (even biblical Prophets) do not teach this false concept.
Nobody is punished for sins od Adam. You will be accountable only for your own sins. God didn't punish Adam and He didn't punish you for Adams GREAT/RIGHT choice


You say......"It would make Him evil if He punished them. He gave them a choice and no matter what choice they would make they wouldn't be punished".

Bible says.....
To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

If this isn't god punishing Eve for eating the apple then you have a sick mind.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 08:22 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 06:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  My religion doesn't teach what you think it teaches.

In all fairness, it teaches a lot of contradictory thing, so it likely teaches things you don't does it does too.


(10-12-2013 06:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  I agree. And He didn't punish anybody.

Is the whole sin = death thing not a punishment? Before they sinned, there was no death, and the Bible says numerous places that sin causes death.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 06:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I'm so glad you mentioned this! Because therein lies the problem with your supposed loving god, Alla. Adam and Eve are between a rock and a hard place with no choice but to break a commandment and/or go against the will of your god. This makes your god evil. There is no way to reconcile these choices.
It would make Him evil if He punished them. He gave them a choice and no matter what choice they would make they wouldn't be punished.
And if they break first commandment they would make good choice. Result - good life
If they broke second commandment they would make a better choice. Result - opportunity to have better life.

(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This is probably one of the main reasons I reject your religion.
My religion doesn't teach what you think it teaches.

(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  But were there a god who existed and loved this universe and it's creations this god shouldn't be giving two people something of a "Sophie's Choice" on day one of their life and then punish them and all mankind for any choice they make.
I agree. And He didn't punish anybody.


(10-12-2013 06:24 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  As for "their sins will be the same as mine" concept . My great-great-grandfather owned a whore house in Old San Francisco during the 1860's. Alla, there is no legal court in the civilized world that would convict me for something my great-great- grandfathers did in 1860. I wouldn't be thrown in jail and I wouldn't need to repent for his mistake. In short, I am not responsible for what my great grand father did 150 years ago. Civil courts the world over have recognized this concept for hundreds of years, that children and grandchildren are not to be blamed for their ancestors mistakes. The world is a more civilized and decent place to live in because of it too.

But you and your ilk still hang onto this "sins of the father" concept . The idea that we, today are responsible for something Adam and Eve did in a book 4 to 6000 years ago, which this god of yours made inevitable from the get-go, is ludicrous. It's sick. It's completely uncivilized in every way and would never hold up in any court of law in any country on this planet. And if the god you believe in requires some sort of restitution for a god concocted, pre-conceived mistake then your god is an uncivilized, horrifying, evil entity and isn't worth the time of day.
I don't hang on this concept. This concept is false and Prophets (even biblical Prophets) do not teach this false concept.
Nobody is punished for sins od Adam. You will be accountable only for your own sins. God didn't punish Adam and He didn't punish you for Adams GREAT/RIGHT choice

In order for your interpretation of the bible to work for you and your cohorts you have to redefine what "death" is which then requires you to redefine the what free will and choice is which then redefines what sin is and thereon down the line. It gives you lots of wiggle room and justifies your interpretation of the bible (one of many thousands) to fit your agenda.

You also need to redefine what the word "punishment" is to fit your idea of sin and evil. Pain isn't punishment according to you, it's part of "evil" which your god created. This is all silly semantics, my dear. When someone steals something and is slapped across the face, it's punishment. When Eve ate the apple and your god made her suffer in childbirth, it's was punishment.

It's a pretty dopey story to begin with and gets sillier as it goes along. I've always been thankful that I didn't have parents that subjected me to this nonsense. It's complete and utter rubbish.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 08:53 PM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 07:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  I agree. Not even one Prophet of God teaches this FALSE/evil doctrine

Unfortunately, the ENTIRE "salvation paradigm" is built on that notion.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ins?page=2

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
10-12-2013, 09:06 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 08:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 07:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  I agree. Not even one Prophet of God teaches this FALSE/evil doctrine

Unfortunately, the ENTIRE "salvation paradigm" is built on that notion.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ins?page=2

Thanks for the link, BB. It's looooooog though! Damn.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 09:44 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 05:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  Of course. Adam died the same moment he broke the law. It calls spiritual death.
He also suffered physical death. Bible says that day can be a term for some kind of period of time. Prophet said that what for us 1000 years for God is 1 day. 930 years is less than 1000 years.

Apparently you don't pay attention to what's being said in the discussion.

Like I said before:
Book

Chapter

Verse


If the simple act of citing you sources and providing good evidence is something you have no desire of doing, then don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

Step up or step down.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-12-2013, 09:50 PM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 09:06 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 08:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Unfortunately, the ENTIRE "salvation paradigm" is built on that notion.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ins?page=2

Thanks for the link, BB. It's looooooog though! Damn.

Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: