Sin
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11-12-2013, 09:53 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 12:02 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  Where does it say that it is the punishment?
It is a continuance from the same sentence/paragraph where the god was punishing the snake.

Imagine this. Two children playing in the house they break the TV.
Mum says to little Thomas
"Because you have done this Cursed are you above all my children, ...
To little Johnnie She said
"I will make your pain in sitting down very severe"

Why do you think Mum is giving Johnnie pain? Is it as punishment or is it because Johnnie choose to have pain?



What. The. Fuck???

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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11-12-2013, 10:21 AM
RE: Sin
(10-12-2013 10:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 08:22 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  In all fairness, it teaches a lot of contradictory thing, so it likely teaches things you don't does it does too.
I don't know what you are talking about. Being more specific would be very helpful.
I wasn't referring to any one specific thing, but rather to the Bible's contradictory nature.


(10-12-2013 10:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 08:22 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Is the whole sin = death thing not a punishment? Before they sinned, there was no death, and the Bible says numerous places that sin causes death.

If I tell you not to eat poisonous mushroom because it causes death and you choose to eat and die do I punish you? or do I give you instruction?
You chose to eat, you died. It calls consequence. If God didn't tell Adam/didn't give him info God would be evil.

Okay, so death is a consequence, but what about all those other things that were doled out in addition to death (increased childbearing pains, having to work the land, etc)? They weren't given as part of the warning in Genesis 2, yet God saw fit to inflict them on everyone. You earlier said that God didn't punish Eve with the increased pain in childbearing. If it wasn't a punishment, what was it?
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11-12-2013, 10:23 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 10:21 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 10:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't know what you are talking about. Being more specific would be very helpful.
I wasn't referring to any one specific thing, but rather to the Bible's contradictory nature.


(10-12-2013 10:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I tell you not to eat poisonous mushroom because it causes death and you choose to eat and die do I punish you? or do I give you instruction?
You chose to eat, you died. It calls consequence. If God didn't tell Adam/didn't give him info God would be evil.

Okay, so death is a consequence, but what about all those other things that were doled out in addition to death (increased childbearing pains, having to work the land, etc)? They weren't given as part of the warning in Genesis 2, yet God saw fit to inflict them on everyone. You earlier said that God didn't punish Eve with the increased pain in childbearing. If it wasn't a punishment, what was it?

That was Lilith's doing - Cursing Eve for being such a pussy.Thumbsup

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11-12-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 10:21 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 10:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't know what you are talking about. Being more specific would be very helpful.
I wasn't referring to any one specific thing, but rather to the Bible's contradictory nature.


(10-12-2013 10:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I tell you not to eat poisonous mushroom because it causes death and you choose to eat and die do I punish you? or do I give you instruction?
You chose to eat, you died. It calls consequence. If God didn't tell Adam/didn't give him info God would be evil.

Okay, so death is a consequence, but what about all those other things that were doled out in addition to death (increased childbearing pains, having to work the land, etc)? They weren't given as part of the warning in Genesis 2, yet God saw fit to inflict them on everyone. You earlier said that God didn't punish Eve with the increased pain in childbearing. If it wasn't a punishment, what was it?

[Image: Bible_Contradictions1-530x300.jpg]

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-12-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: Sin
(09-12-2013 07:17 PM)natachan Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that I simply don't get the creationist mindset, and never will. One of the big issues that comes up is SIN.

Yes, that's right, the big one. SIN. Growing up I was always warned about sin. Eating meat on Friday was a sin, wearing jeans and tennis shoes to mass was a sin, cursing at the neighbor kids when they cheated was a sin, cheating back after they cheated was a sin, premarital sex was a sin, etc. But it was never really explained what sin actually WAS. Not down to the root of it anyway. So I went and looked it up.

Sin is essentially broken down as such, directly disobeying God and actions that distract from God or that are not actions taken by a "perfect being." The first is fairly straight forward, directly disobeying God's laws. OK. First we must define what God we are talking about, and that's a bit more difficult than you might think. If we define God as "the best in ourselves" then there's no problem. Sin would be anything that goes against that which is good within you. Stealing, murder, rape, all sins and I would agree all evil. But if we define God as the God of the Bible then everything is permitted so long as God commands it. God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son and Abraham goes to obey. God commands rape and murder, and the Isrealites obey. God commands the killing of people who don't worship him, deems them as worse than human beings. I don't accept this. I have never accepted "because I say so" as a valid reason for anything (pity my poor parents). God does not get away with it either. He does not get to put one set of laws for some people and another for a different group of people just "because he says so." That's not a valid reason. The apologists will say that they were corrupt. How? Were there not moral people among the non-believers then? Are there not non-believers now who are perfectly moral? What right does anyone, even God, have to condemn anyone for private thoughts?

The second type is those sins that distract from God or take away from the state of a perfect being. These are "sins that arise from every day living." This irritates me on another level. It is a sin to eat, since it distracts from God and is a pleasure of the flesh. Yet we eat in order to live, in order to sustain our lives. To not eat is to commit suicide, which is also a sin. It is a sin to feel ambition, yet it is ambition that drives us to seek to live in this world. It is a sin to feel lust or love for another human being, and yet this is one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Bottom line: in order to sustain and enjoy the precious gift which is our life we must live in sin. We are damned for our life and our love of our lives.

I reject this. I reject it wholeheartedly. I refuse to accept that I am guilty simply for having that one most precious gift of all, my life. I refuse to accept that my love of this world is what damns me. But this isn't what irritates me the most.

Original. Sin.

This is the most atrocious doctrine of all. The idea that we are guilty for something that we had no control over. "The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons." We are guilty due to the actions of others whom we have and can have no say in. We are damned, not for our own actions and crimes, but for the actions of others long dead. And in order to repent we must rely on the murder of a man who committed no crime. We must offer to death and torture a man who did nothing wrong in order to pay for the crimes of others.

This is THE MOST repellant doctrine of all. I am NOT, nor is anyone else, responsible for the actions of others. We cannot be. A person can only be responsible for their own actions. Any God who damns a person for an action that they DID NOT CHOOSE is monstrously unjust. Any God that demands the murder of an innocent to appease the crimes of others is beyond unjust. I do not take blame that is not mine, and I do not engage in human sacrifices. If there was a Jesus it was monstrously unjust to murder him and I will take no benefit from that. I will not allow anyone else to pay for my crimes.

Sorry for the rant.
Your rant is nothing to be sorry for. You are just being honest. We all have felt this way I suspect. However, you are mistaken on some points. For one thing, I don't think your scripture interpretation is accurate. This is what you have gotten right in my view. God is the best in ourselves. You are saying no different than what scripture says; The Word of God is the Light of man. By the way, the Word the scripture is referring to is not the bible.
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11-12-2013, 11:00 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 10:58 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 07:17 PM)natachan Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that I simply don't get the creationist mindset, and never will. One of the big issues that comes up is SIN.

Yes, that's right, the big one. SIN. Growing up I was always warned about sin. Eating meat on Friday was a sin, wearing jeans and tennis shoes to mass was a sin, cursing at the neighbor kids when they cheated was a sin, cheating back after they cheated was a sin, premarital sex was a sin, etc. But it was never really explained what sin actually WAS. Not down to the root of it anyway. So I went and looked it up.

Sin is essentially broken down as such, directly disobeying God and actions that distract from God or that are not actions taken by a "perfect being." The first is fairly straight forward, directly disobeying God's laws. OK. First we must define what God we are talking about, and that's a bit more difficult than you might think. If we define God as "the best in ourselves" then there's no problem. Sin would be anything that goes against that which is good within you. Stealing, murder, rape, all sins and I would agree all evil. But if we define God as the God of the Bible then everything is permitted so long as God commands it. God commands Abraham to sacrifice his son and Abraham goes to obey. God commands rape and murder, and the Isrealites obey. God commands the killing of people who don't worship him, deems them as worse than human beings. I don't accept this. I have never accepted "because I say so" as a valid reason for anything (pity my poor parents). God does not get away with it either. He does not get to put one set of laws for some people and another for a different group of people just "because he says so." That's not a valid reason. The apologists will say that they were corrupt. How? Were there not moral people among the non-believers then? Are there not non-believers now who are perfectly moral? What right does anyone, even God, have to condemn anyone for private thoughts?

The second type is those sins that distract from God or take away from the state of a perfect being. These are "sins that arise from every day living." This irritates me on another level. It is a sin to eat, since it distracts from God and is a pleasure of the flesh. Yet we eat in order to live, in order to sustain our lives. To not eat is to commit suicide, which is also a sin. It is a sin to feel ambition, yet it is ambition that drives us to seek to live in this world. It is a sin to feel lust or love for another human being, and yet this is one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Bottom line: in order to sustain and enjoy the precious gift which is our life we must live in sin. We are damned for our life and our love of our lives.

I reject this. I reject it wholeheartedly. I refuse to accept that I am guilty simply for having that one most precious gift of all, my life. I refuse to accept that my love of this world is what damns me. But this isn't what irritates me the most.

Original. Sin.

This is the most atrocious doctrine of all. The idea that we are guilty for something that we had no control over. "The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons." We are guilty due to the actions of others whom we have and can have no say in. We are damned, not for our own actions and crimes, but for the actions of others long dead. And in order to repent we must rely on the murder of a man who committed no crime. We must offer to death and torture a man who did nothing wrong in order to pay for the crimes of others.

This is THE MOST repellant doctrine of all. I am NOT, nor is anyone else, responsible for the actions of others. We cannot be. A person can only be responsible for their own actions. Any God who damns a person for an action that they DID NOT CHOOSE is monstrously unjust. Any God that demands the murder of an innocent to appease the crimes of others is beyond unjust. I do not take blame that is not mine, and I do not engage in human sacrifices. If there was a Jesus it was monstrously unjust to murder him and I will take no benefit from that. I will not allow anyone else to pay for my crimes.

Sorry for the rant.
Your rant is nothing to be sorry for. You are just being honest. We all have felt this way I suspect. However, you are mistaken on some points. For one thing, I don't think your scripture interpretation is accurate. This is what you have gotten right in my view. God is the best in ourselves. You are saying no different than what scripture says; The Word of God is the Light of man. By the way, the Word the scripture is referring to is not the bible.

Maybe clarify ?

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11-12-2013, 11:04 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 12:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The damn myth was a common myth in the ancient Near east. It had nothing to do with ingesting apples. What they were fascinated with, was chaos and order. (See ALL the Sumerian myths ... Marduk. What the fuck did Marduk "slay" ? The Dragon of Chaos, whose name was Tiamet). What was the name of the damn tree ? The "tree of the KNOWLEDGE of (BOTH) good AND evil). An attempt to "encompass" *opposites*. That's "chaos", (retold in the Hebrew myth). Only a deity could "encompass opposites". Humans must make choices. The sin was not eating the apple, but the attempt to attain divine status, (and "know" both). Take some fucking Comparative Mythology for fuck sake.

Isn't there a similar myth among the Indigenous People of N. America? Chaos and Order are dealt with in a similar manner?

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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11-12-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 11:00 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 10:58 AM)childeye Wrote:  Your rant is nothing to be sorry for. You are just being honest. We all have felt this way I suspect. However, you are mistaken on some points. For one thing, I don't think your scripture interpretation is accurate. This is what you have gotten right in my view. God is the best in ourselves. You are saying no different than what scripture says; The Word of God is the Light of man. By the way, the Word the scripture is referring to is not the bible.

Maybe clarify ?
I felt I was quite clear. Please specify what I have said that you feel might be said better.
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11-12-2013, 11:37 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 10:21 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I wasn't referring to any one specific thing, but rather to the Bible's contradictory nature.
That chart cracks me up. The very first one given can't be shown to be a contradiction.
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11-12-2013, 11:42 AM
RE: Sin
(11-12-2013 10:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 10:21 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I wasn't referring to any one specific thing, but rather to the Bible's contradictory nature.



Okay, so death is a consequence, but what about all those other things that were doled out in addition to death (increased childbearing pains, having to work the land, etc)? They weren't given as part of the warning in Genesis 2, yet God saw fit to inflict them on everyone. You earlier said that God didn't punish Eve with the increased pain in childbearing. If it wasn't a punishment, what was it?

[Image: Bible_Contradictions1-530x300.jpg]
Since the problem of vanity is that it takes God for granted, all of these things clearly are designed to see how good we had it in the garden. For the woman, bearing a child in pain is not unlike the pain that God goes through in bringing forth His children.
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