Six day war miracles
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11-08-2013, 11:55 PM
Six day war miracles
Hello everyone-- this is my first time posting here. I am a fairly recent deconvert, trying to strengthen my atheism. Recently, there was an article about a mystery priest on Fox News. I made the mistake of going to the comments where some Christian posted about the miracles god did for Israel in the Six-day war. Unfortunately, I looked up info on this and got freaked out! There were storied about Arabs stating they saw angels, and even Abraham. There was a video series that I suffered through called Against All Odds- Israel Survives. I know this is a long post but wondered if anyone on this site has heard about this purported miracles and how an atheist can logically explain away the allegations. If you want, I can post some specific stories for debunking-- but my post is already really long. Any help you can provide is appreciated. I want to be a happy atheist without worrying about Israel and their damn supposed miracles!!!
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12-08-2013, 12:18 AM
RE: Six day war miracles
People claim to have seen Elvis, too. So what? People are stupid.
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12-08-2013, 12:47 AM
RE: Six day war miracles
From Wikipedia:

Main article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Quotes:

Dayan's final report on the war to the Israeli general staff listed several shortcomings in Israel's actions, including misinterpretation of Nasser's intentions, overdependence on the United States, and reluctance to act when Egypt closed the Straits. He also credited several factors for Israel's success: Egypt did not appreciate the advantage of striking first and their adversaries did not accurately gauge Israel's strength and its willingness to use it.[163]

After the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Egypt reviewed the causes of its loss of the 1967 war. Issues that were identified included "the individualistic bureaucratic leadership"; "promotions on the basis of loyalty, not expertise, and the army's fear of telling Nasser the truth"; lack of intelligence; and better Israeli weapons, command, organization, and will to fight.[163]


Not exactly the stuff of miracles, eh? As a former Xian who read various books by believers, Confirmation Bias tends to be a running thread within them...it certainly made me feel better back in the day.
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12-08-2013, 02:24 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2013 03:02 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Six day war miracles
It can only be called a miracle if it was physically impossible for Israel to win, and yet they won. If it was just a long shot that Israel would win and yet the won....then you can dismiss the "miracle" as just as long shot coming in. Long shots coming in happen every day. Your very existence is an example of one.

As far as reports of seeing Angels or Abraham, The credibility of such reports is in proportion to the numbers making them. One person making a report is not credible. You could dismiss such a report on its face. However if every member of the Egyptian army made such a report, then that would be much more credible...that would be much harder to dismiss.

What do you really know about these reports of seeing Angels or Abraham? If there was a miracle here, this where it would be...and not because Israel won(that could have easily been a long shot coming in).
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12-08-2013, 02:45 AM
RE: Six day war miracles
(11-08-2013 11:55 PM)Kushne Wrote:  ...
Arabs stating they saw angels, and even Abraham.
...

I am left wondering on whose side was Abraham?

It must be awful to be a long dead patriarch having to choose between the warring factions of your truculent children.

Dodgy

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12-08-2013, 07:44 AM
RE: Six day war miracles
Thanks for the replies. I agree that since both religions claimed Abraham as there father-- I found it a little confusing as to why an Arab wouldn't think him appearing in the sky wouldn't be a good sign for them!! Their are actually two versions of this story--- one is from the 1967 war when a Jordanian captive explains why his troop ran away ( of course you don't hear directly from him but rather an Israeli recounting the story, and then another time in 1948 or so when another out umbered Israeli troop sees a bunch of Syrian (I think!) troops start yelling Abraham and run away. Years later one of the Israelis is telling the story to one of his relatives and and Arab comes up and says he was one of the soldiers who ran away because they saw a giant man in the sky they thought was Abraham! Still, only heard by the Israeli.

The last angel story has to do with Gershon Solomon who says that he was injured inn fighting during the 1958 war when Syrian soldiers just turned and ran away right before killing him. While in the hospital he overheard UN officials stating the the Syrians reported thousands of angels surrounding him. In an Omega Letter post about this, some person said they saw actual UN documentation but I could not find anything specific regarding the UN report on the Internet so I don't know what it really said. Anyway, the last one kind of freaked me out the mistake this guy leads the Temple institute and wants to rebuild the Jewish temple and thinks it is divine inspiration he didn't die. As a former fundamentalist, I get scared by stuff like this and can't as easily brush it off.. As an atheist. I want to totally disregard, but all the indoctrination in my head makes that hard. Help!!!
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12-08-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: Six day war miracles
(11-08-2013 11:55 PM)Kushne Wrote:  ...I am a fairly recent deconvert, trying to strengthen my atheism. ... but wondered if anyone on this site has heard about this purported miracles and how an atheist can logically explain away the allegations. ...


Shenanigans

...
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12-08-2013, 09:38 AM
RE: Six day war miracles
Comments on Fox News attributing good things to Jebus? Who would have thought that would happen?

If you study that conflict you'll find the the Israeli's had better training, equipment, command and control and that one wonderful thing in war, luck!

Israel had unified command and control. They were fighting at home. That usually motivates troops.

The Arabs had to mesh several command and control structures. This is difficult for well equipped and trained militaries. While some of these states made a great show of prowess they were really paper tigers. Look at what we did to Iraq.

I see no devine intervention but who am I to question Fox News and it's commenters.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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12-08-2013, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2013 10:49 AM by Rahn127.)
RE: Six day war miracles
Reports of seeing angels are like reports of seeing bigfoot.

Lots of reports, NO evidence.

One last thing - "how an atheist can logically explain away the allegations"

I logically explain allegations this way....
"You made an allegation.......congratulations"

Here is my allegation - "You DIDN'T see what you thought you saw"

Now we have a difference of opinion concerning an event.

Where do we go from here ?

First step is to identify any evidence that supports the initial claim.
If there is no evidence to support the claim then all we have is a claim and nothing more.
If we have more witnesses to the event, then that's something, but it still doesn't add any evidence on the table

It's not my job to "explain away an allegation". It's the persons job who makes the allegation to provide some supporting evidence

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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12-08-2013, 10:52 AM
RE: Six day war miracles
just for reference ...... this is not even "original"....

Check out "The Angel of Mons" ....

On 24 April 1915, an account was published in the British Spiritualist magazine telling of visions of a supernatural force that miraculously intervened to help the British at the decisive moment of the battle. This rapidly resulted in a flurry of similar accounts and the spread of wild rumours. Descriptions of this force varied from it being medieval longbow archers alongside St. George to a strange luminous cloud, though eventually the most popular version came to be angelic warriors. Similar tales of such battlefield visions occurred in medieval and ancient warfare


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels_of_Mons

or here for a newspaper clipping of the period ...

http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/gwa/item...OX=1&REC=5

Trust me ... it didn't happen for the Brits in 1914 and it didn't happen for the Israelies in '67.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.


"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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