Six day war miracles
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12-08-2013, 11:14 AM
RE: Six day war miracles
(12-08-2013 02:45 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(11-08-2013 11:55 PM)Kushne Wrote:  ...
Arabs stating they saw angels, and even Abraham.
...

I am left wondering on whose side was Abraham?

It must be awful to be a long dead patriarch having to choose between the warring factions of your truculent children.

Dodgy

Well for US it would be, sure, but we live in a very different culture than Abraham would have lived in, and our assumptions about how parents view their children dying for a religious cause aren't necessarily applicable to his character.

If only we had some insight into Abraham's mindset on this point....

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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25-02-2015, 12:32 PM
RE: Six day war miracles
(12-08-2013 09:38 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  Comments on Fox News attributing good things to Jebus? Who would have thought that would happen?If you study that conflict you'll find the the Israeli's had better training, equipment, command and control and that one wonderful thing in war, luck! Israel had unified command and control. They were fighting at home. That usually motivates troops, etc...

Please cite your sources in a scholarly way. Something I would expect from every person claiming they are a "Thinking Atheist." Thanks in advance.
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25-02-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: Six day war miracles
(11-08-2013 11:55 PM)Kushne Wrote:  Hello everyone-- this is my first time posting here. I am a fairly recent deconvert, trying to strengthen my atheism. . . I made the mistake of going to the comments where some Christian posted about the miracles god did for Israel in the Six-day war. Unfortunately, I looked up info on this and got freaked out! . . . I want to be a happy atheist without worrying about Israel and their damn supposed miracles!!!

It sounds like you have not yet totally closed off your mind and honestly want to know whether God exists or not (although you sound as if you prefer He didn't). So as a professional adult educator and former scientist maybe I can give you a few hints to help you on your journey to Truth.

First of all, be aware that there will always be people on the Internet ready to debunk something you want debunked. Just because they gave you an answer that sounded good to you, it doesn't mean they are leading you down the path to Truth. Make them cite their sources and make sure those citations are from credible sources, not Wikipedia. Even then, do your research. Find out what those who oppose this debunking might say in defense of that piece of information. In the end, hopefully you will be well informed. But you may eventually have to go with your gut. Look at the credibility and heart of the person giving you the information (pro or con). Sounds like you were pretty impressed by the man who gave the testimony.

Did you know the fulfillment of Bible prophecy provides enough evidence to debunk atheism? The probability or odds of Jesus fulfilling just 300 very precise and detailed prophecies is one and a number that is higher than the number of atoms in the entire universe (He fulfilled many more than 300). Yet there are hundreds more that have been fulfilled about other historical events as well, including the miraculous reappearance of the nation of Israel after nearly 2,000 years, as prophesied. This will be the generation to see Christ's return.

Keep in mind, that the Apostles were willing to die to prove to the world that they saw what they saw. How is this different from a Muslim terrorist dying for his faith? There is a really big difference. Nobody would be willing to die for a lie. While Muslims are simply dying for the promise of heaven (i.e., their faith), the Apostles were dying for what they knew. They were actual witnesses to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If they were simply trying to become popular or get money, they would never have been willing to die or endure beatings and other forms of persecution for a lie they had made up for selfish reasons. Once things got difficult, they could have run away. However, all but one of them would work tirelessly for years before being put to death.

I have experienced many miracles. I even have proof of some of these. But I have also discovered that most people will believe however they want to believe despite the proof you provide for them. So in the end, even for the atheist, it has to come down to a matter of faith. But you can be certain God exists. If you will lay down any psychological need you may have had to put on this identity of an atheist. Humility is the key to engage in an honest search for God or Truth. But unlike atheism, God will eventually provide you with the certainty or proof you desire. It just takes perseverance. Just make sure you aren't being blinded by prejudice arising from some psychological need to use atheism as a cover up. If you answer any of the following questions yes, then you are.

What is your real reason for being an atheist? Are you really searching for truth or:
  • Did you get humiliated in college by someone who had more answers than you? If so, why didn't you seek the answers you were unprepared to answer?
  • Were you angry with your parents' opinion towards your behavior or resent their control over you?
  • Was becoming an atheist a way to separate yourself from any identification with your embarrassing parents? If so, instead of showing them and everyone else how much of an adult you were, you may have actually demonstrated your immaturity (if any of that was your original motivation).
  • Did you become an atheist to feel more acceptable by others or as the result of peer pressure?
  • Were you made to feel vulnerable and weak because you were a Christian and just wanted to identify with something that seemed more certain and stronger? Bad motivation
  • Are you just angry at God? That is what forgiveness and trust are for.
  • Did a Christian disappoint or abuse you. I sympathize, but that is what healing and forgiveness are for. Would you give up on your favorite sports team simply because a fan hurt your feelings? No.
  • Does atheism provide you with more certainty than Christianity? Faith is not your key to some heavenly bank account to use for your own selfish gain. Faith is meant to cause you the conflict you need to be transformed into His Image. When that conflict comes, you will either be motivated to draw closer to Jesus to discover the answers you seek or you will choose to give up. If you don't give up, you will learn who He is. That is how you become more like Him. Read up a bit on Jack Mezirow's ten phases of adult transformation regarding this process (purely secular information on adult education). This will show yet another way that science is catching up with the Bible, proving how faith or the lack thereof can bring about the needed "disorienting dilemma" to cause human transformation (for better or worse).


If you answered yes to one or more of these questions, then your reason for choosing atheism (or not choosing God) is not a credible one, but rather a psychological escape. Therefore, be aware that you can never look at any data that is in favor of God without experiencing extreme prejudice. Consequently, you may not be the critical thinker nor the honest seeker of truth you really believe you are; at least not in this subject area, anyway. You can also test whether you are able to be honest about your pursuit of the Truth by determining whether or not reading this or other comments made by Christians makes you angry or if it makes you suddenly rise up in pride and arrogance (I call that the Meter O' Truth).

If you failed your first test of faith, don't worry. As long as you have breath it isn't too late to start an honest search for Truth. Just take a look at your heart to determine whether you can receive the Truth or not. Then turn around and think again (i.e., repent). Then lay down any need you might have to be right (e.g., put on some honesty and humility). Good luck. Contact me if I can be of any help.

I hope this was thought provoking.
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25-02-2015, 03:52 PM
RE: Six day war miracles
(25-02-2015 03:22 PM)Caleb Wrote:  
(11-08-2013 11:55 PM)Kushne Wrote:  Hello everyone-- this is my first time posting here. I am a fairly recent deconvert, trying to strengthen my atheism. . . I made the mistake of going to the comments where some Christian posted about the miracles god did for Israel in the Six-day war. Unfortunately, I looked up info on this and got freaked out! . . . I want to be a happy atheist without worrying about Israel and their damn supposed miracles!!!

It sounds like you have not yet totally closed off your mind and honestly want to know whether God exists or not (although you sound as if you prefer He didn't). So as a professional adult educator and former scientist maybe I can give you a few hints to help you on your journey to Truth.

First of all, be aware that there will always be people on the Internet ready to debunk something you want debunked. Just because they gave you an answer that sounded good to you, it doesn't mean they are leading you down the path to Truth. Make them cite their sources and make sure those citations are from credible sources, not Wikipedia. Even then, do your research. Find out what those who oppose this debunking might say in defense of that piece of information. In the end, hopefully you will be well informed. But you may eventually have to go with your gut. Look at the credibility and heart of the person giving you the information (pro or con). Sounds like you were pretty impressed by the man who gave the testimony.

Did you know the fulfillment of Bible prophecy provides enough evidence to debunk atheism? The probability or odds of Jesus fulfilling just 300 very precise and detailed prophecies is one and a number that is higher than the number of atoms in the entire universe (He fulfilled many more than 300). Yet there are hundreds more that have been fulfilled about other historical events as well, including the miraculous reappearance of the nation of Israel after nearly 2,000 years, as prophesied. This will be the generation to see Christ's return.

Keep in mind, that the Apostles were willing to die to prove to the world that they saw what they saw. How is this different from a Muslim terrorist dying for his faith? There is a really big difference. Nobody would be willing to die for a lie. While Muslims are simply dying for the promise of heaven (i.e., their faith), the Apostles were dying for what they knew. They were actual witnesses to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If they were simply trying to become popular or get money, they would never have been willing to die or endure beatings and other forms of persecution for a lie they had made up for selfish reasons. Once things got difficult, they could have run away. However, all but one of them would work tirelessly for years before being put to death.

I have experienced many miracles. I even have proof of some of these. But I have also discovered that most people will believe however they want to believe despite the proof you provide for them. So in the end, even for the atheist, it has to come down to a matter of faith. But you can be certain God exists. If you will lay down any psychological need you may have had to put on this identity of an atheist. Humility is the key to engage in an honest search for God or Truth. But unlike atheism, God will eventually provide you with the certainty or proof you desire. It just takes perseverance. Just make sure you aren't being blinded by prejudice arising from some psychological need to use atheism as a cover up. If you answer any of the following questions yes, then you are.

What is your real reason for being an atheist? Are you really searching for truth or:
  • Did you get humiliated in college by someone who had more answers than you? If so, why didn't you seek the answers you were unprepared to answer?
  • Were you angry with your parents' opinion towards your behavior or resent their control over you?
  • Was becoming an atheist a way to separate yourself from any identification with your embarrassing parents? If so, instead of showing them and everyone else how much of an adult you were, you may have actually demonstrated your immaturity (if any of that was your original motivation).
  • Did you become an atheist to feel more acceptable by others or as the result of peer pressure?
  • Were you made to feel vulnerable and weak because you were a Christian and just wanted to identify with something that seemed more certain and stronger? Bad motivation
  • Are you just angry at God? That is what forgiveness and trust are for.
  • Did a Christian disappoint or abuse you. I sympathize, but that is what healing and forgiveness are for. Would you give up on your favorite sports team simply because a fan hurt your feelings? No.
  • Does atheism provide you with more certainty than Christianity? Faith is not your key to some heavenly bank account to use for your own selfish gain. Faith is meant to cause you the conflict you need to be transformed into His Image. When that conflict comes, you will either be motivated to draw closer to Jesus to discover the answers you seek or you will choose to give up. If you don't give up, you will learn who He is. That is how you become more like Him. Read up a bit on Jack Mezirow's ten phases of adult transformation regarding this process (purely secular information on adult education). This will show yet another way that science is catching up with the Bible, proving how faith or the lack thereof can bring about the needed "disorienting dilemma" to cause human transformation (for better or worse).


If you answered yes to one or more of these questions, then your reason for choosing atheism (or not choosing God) is not a credible one, but rather a psychological escape. Therefore, be aware that you can never look at any data that is in favor of God without experiencing extreme prejudice. Consequently, you may not be the critical thinker nor the honest seeker of truth you really believe you are; at least not in this subject area, anyway. You can also test whether you are able to be honest about your pursuit of the Truth by determining whether or not reading this or other comments made by Christians makes you angry or if it makes you suddenly rise up in pride and arrogance (I call that the Meter O' Truth).

If you failed your first test of faith, don't worry. As long as you have breath it isn't too late to start an honest search for Truth. Just take a look at your heart to determine whether you can receive the Truth or not. Then turn around and think again (i.e., repent). Then lay down any need you might have to be right (e.g., put on some honesty and humility). Good luck. Contact me if I can be of any help.

I hope this was thought provoking.

I really love how you begin with an appeal to authority.

Yeah...


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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25-02-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Six day war miracles
(25-02-2015 03:22 PM)Caleb Wrote:  
(11-08-2013 11:55 PM)Kushne Wrote:  Hello everyone-- this is my first time posting here. I am a fairly recent deconvert, trying to strengthen my atheism. . . I made the mistake of going to the comments where some Christian posted about the miracles god did for Israel in the Six-day war. Unfortunately, I looked up info on this and got freaked out! . . . I want to be a happy atheist without worrying about Israel and their damn supposed miracles!!!


I have experienced many miracles. I even have proof of some of these.

What would that be? Perhaps you were healed and have a medical doctor's diagnosis before and after this "miracle"?

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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25-02-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: Six day war miracles
(25-02-2015 03:22 PM)Caleb Wrote:  What is your real reason for being an atheist? Are you really searching for truth or:
  • Did you get humiliated in college by someone who had more answers than you? If so, why didn't you seek the answers you were unprepared to answer?
  • Were you angry with your parents' opinion towards your behavior or resent their control over you?
  • Was becoming an atheist a way to separate yourself from any identification with your embarrassing parents? If so, instead of showing them and everyone else how much of an adult you were, you may have actually demonstrated your immaturity (if any of that was your original motivation).
  • Did you become an atheist to feel more acceptable by others or as the result of peer pressure?
  • Were you made to feel vulnerable and weak because you were a Christian and just wanted to identify with something that seemed more certain and stronger? Bad motivation
  • Are you just angry at God? That is what forgiveness and trust are for.
  • Did a Christian disappoint or abuse you. I sympathize, but that is what healing and forgiveness are for. Would you give up on your favorite sports team simply because a fan hurt your feelings? No.
  • Does atheism provide you with more certainty than Christianity? Faith is not your key to some heavenly bank account to use for your own selfish gain. Faith is meant to cause you the conflict you need to be transformed into His Image. When that conflict comes, you will either be motivated to draw closer to Jesus to discover the answers you seek or you will choose to give up. If you don't give up, you will learn who He is. That is how you become more like Him. Read up a bit on Jack Mezirow's ten phases of adult transformation regarding this process (purely secular information on adult education). This will show yet another way that science is catching up with the Bible, proving how faith or the lack thereof can bring about the needed "disorienting dilemma" to cause human transformation (for better or worse).


For people that once believed and then stop, atheism just happens. It's not a choice and it's not for a reason. You can't choose to believe and you can't choose not to believe. You do one or the other according to what makes the most sense to you. And, not to be insulting or demeaning, but I find that believing and disbelieving tend to be on opposite ends of the spectrum of knowledge with atheists being on the higher knowledge end; knowledge about religions, various holy books, history, archeology, science, and geography.

(25-02-2015 03:22 PM)Caleb Wrote:  I hope this was thought provoking.

Sorry, but no it wasn't. Unfortunately, it sounded very typical of many people who have come here with unsubstantiated claims, countless preconceptions, and a lack of understanding about atheism. Stick around and read a few things here. You may find that atheists aren't at all what you expected.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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25-02-2015, 04:16 PM
Six day war miracles
Wow, in one post Caleb showed he knows absolutely nothing about why people are atheists.

Bravo.
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25-02-2015, 04:16 PM
RE: Six day war miracles
(25-02-2015 03:22 PM)Caleb Wrote:  I can give you a few hints to help you on your journey to Truth.
Always be weary when someone spells "truth" with a capital letter.
It's a special kind of truth that they are offering.

"Truth" comes with a specific faith and specific belief.

"truth" comes with falsifiable criteria, evidence, objective validation and failed attempts to meet the falsifiable criteria.
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25-02-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Six day war miracles
(25-02-2015 04:16 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 03:22 PM)Caleb Wrote:  I can give you a few hints to help you on your journey to Truth.
Always be weary when someone spells "truth" with a capital letter.
It's a special kind of truth that they are offering.

"Truth" comes with a specific faith and specific belief.

"truth" comes with falsifiable criteria, evidence, objective validation and failed attempts to meet the falsifiable criteria.

Yeah but, the dude is an adult educator and scientist. Laughat


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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25-02-2015, 04:40 PM
RE: Six day war miracles
(25-02-2015 03:22 PM)Caleb Wrote:  
(11-08-2013 11:55 PM)Kushne Wrote:  Hello everyone-- this is my first time posting here. I am a fairly recent deconvert, trying to strengthen my atheism. . . I made the mistake of going to the comments where some Christian posted about the miracles god did for Israel in the Six-day war. Unfortunately, I looked up info on this and got freaked out! . . . I want to be a happy atheist without worrying about Israel and their damn supposed miracles!!!

It sounds like you have not yet totally closed off your mind and honestly want to know whether God exists or not (although you sound as if you prefer He didn't). So as a professional adult educator and former scientist maybe I can give you a few hints to help you on your journey to Truth.

First of all, be aware that there will always be people on the Internet ready to debunk something you want debunked. Just because they gave you an answer that sounded good to you, it doesn't mean they are leading you down the path to Truth. Make them cite their sources and make sure those citations are from credible sources, not Wikipedia. Even then, do your research. Find out what those who oppose this debunking might say in defense of that piece of information. In the end, hopefully you will be well informed. But you may eventually have to go with your gut. Look at the credibility and heart of the person giving you the information (pro or con). Sounds like you were pretty impressed by the man who gave the testimony.

Did you know the fulfillment of Bible prophecy provides enough evidence to debunk atheism? The probability or odds of Jesus fulfilling just 300 very precise and detailed prophecies is one and a number that is higher than the number of atoms in the entire universe (He fulfilled many more than 300). Yet there are hundreds more that have been fulfilled about other historical events as well, including the miraculous reappearance of the nation of Israel after nearly 2,000 years, as prophesied. This will be the generation to see Christ's return.

Keep in mind, that the Apostles were willing to die to prove to the world that they saw what they saw. How is this different from a Muslim terrorist dying for his faith? There is a really big difference. Nobody would be willing to die for a lie. While Muslims are simply dying for the promise of heaven (i.e., their faith), the Apostles were dying for what they knew. They were actual witnesses to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If they were simply trying to become popular or get money, they would never have been willing to die or endure beatings and other forms of persecution for a lie they had made up for selfish reasons. Once things got difficult, they could have run away. However, all but one of them would work tirelessly for years before being put to death.

I have experienced many miracles. I even have proof of some of these. But I have also discovered that most people will believe however they want to believe despite the proof you provide for them. So in the end, even for the atheist, it has to come down to a matter of faith. But you can be certain God exists. If you will lay down any psychological need you may have had to put on this identity of an atheist. Humility is the key to engage in an honest search for God or Truth. But unlike atheism, God will eventually provide you with the certainty or proof you desire. It just takes perseverance. Just make sure you aren't being blinded by prejudice arising from some psychological need to use atheism as a cover up. If you answer any of the following questions yes, then you are.

What is your real reason for being an atheist? Are you really searching for truth or:
  • Did you get humiliated in college by someone who had more answers than you? If so, why didn't you seek the answers you were unprepared to answer?
  • Were you angry with your parents' opinion towards your behavior or resent their control over you?
  • Was becoming an atheist a way to separate yourself from any identification with your embarrassing parents? If so, instead of showing them and everyone else how much of an adult you were, you may have actually demonstrated your immaturity (if any of that was your original motivation).
  • Did you become an atheist to feel more acceptable by others or as the result of peer pressure?
  • Were you made to feel vulnerable and weak because you were a Christian and just wanted to identify with something that seemed more certain and stronger? Bad motivation
  • Are you just angry at God? That is what forgiveness and trust are for.
  • Did a Christian disappoint or abuse you. I sympathize, but that is what healing and forgiveness are for. Would you give up on your favorite sports team simply because a fan hurt your feelings? No.
  • Does atheism provide you with more certainty than Christianity? Faith is not your key to some heavenly bank account to use for your own selfish gain. Faith is meant to cause you the conflict you need to be transformed into His Image. When that conflict comes, you will either be motivated to draw closer to Jesus to discover the answers you seek or you will choose to give up. If you don't give up, you will learn who He is. That is how you become more like Him. Read up a bit on Jack Mezirow's ten phases of adult transformation regarding this process (purely secular information on adult education). This will show yet another way that science is catching up with the Bible, proving how faith or the lack thereof can bring about the needed "disorienting dilemma" to cause human transformation (for better or worse).


If you answered yes to one or more of these questions, then your reason for choosing atheism (or not choosing God) is not a credible one, but rather a psychological escape. Therefore, be aware that you can never look at any data that is in favor of God without experiencing extreme prejudice. Consequently, you may not be the critical thinker nor the honest seeker of truth you really believe you are; at least not in this subject area, anyway. You can also test whether you are able to be honest about your pursuit of the Truth by determining whether or not reading this or other comments made by Christians makes you angry or if it makes you suddenly rise up in pride and arrogance (I call that the Meter O' Truth).

If you failed your first test of faith, don't worry. As long as you have breath it isn't too late to start an honest search for Truth. Just take a look at your heart to determine whether you can receive the Truth or not. Then turn around and think again (i.e., repent). Then lay down any need you might have to be right (e.g., put on some honesty and humility). Good luck. Contact me if I can be of any help.

I hope this was thought provoking.

I rather doubt you were actually a scientist. You have demonstrated no skepticism whatsoever in your post.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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