Skeptic vs. Theist
This is another chat I got from Omegle. I just post an interesting question and see what these two people come up with. This one has a funny end.
Quote:Skeptic: is there any reason for the assumption that the ultimate cause was a conscious being?
Theist: What else could it be?
Theist: How can something unconscious create something so precise as the universe?
Skeptic: why couldnt it?
Skeptic: most causes are not conscious
Theist: Tell me, have you even seen dust from into a computer?
Skeptic: we make computers
Skeptic: we dont make everything
Skeptic: most things dont have conscious cause
Theist: You're missing my point
Skeptic: im not
Theist: dust doesn't turn into a computer
Skeptic: your saying computers are made by humans
Theist: unless there is a men, with intelligence
Skeptic: well computerless matter does go into making a computer
Skeptic: and your just listing things that men make
Theist: the same with the universe
Skeptic: im not saying men dont make things
Theist: well, the same logic apply to god
Skeptic: biology for example, shows how very simple things can become massivly complex
Skeptic: well it does and has
Skeptic: so no
Theist: They've never showed how mud turns into live. Trust me. I've serached
Skeptic: turns into live?
Skeptic: and no
Skeptic: things in mud can become much more complex
Skeptic: and acid molecules can become dna yes
Skeptic: the universe is a complexity engine
Skeptic: everything given the right environment becomes more complex
Theist: Yeah, and the complex engine was made by god
Theist: What is so hard to understand?
Skeptic: nothing suggests that
Skeptic: a cause seems possible
Skeptic: althoug maybe not according to modern physics
Skeptic: but despite that
Skeptic: a cause is possible
Skeptic: but nothing points to a conscious one
Theist: that's because your not looking for it right
Skeptic: your argument so far is that becuase men make things, then god must exist
Theist: Go outside and look around you
Skeptic: all things are complex, there for there is a god
Skeptic: it just doesnt follow
Theist: Then ask yourself, 'could this have come from nothing?'
Skeptic: what did i say?
Skeptic: a cause is possible
Skeptic: not many people are climing that something came from nothing
Theist: What would it take to convince you God is responsible?
Skeptic: if there was positive evidence. if there was any good reason for the assumption.
Skeptic: and maybe if it told me personaly
Theist: God will speak to you but only if you believe and have faith
Skeptic: so you ccan only believe if you believe
Skeptic: again, circular thinking
Skeptic: you should believe in anything with that thinking
Skeptic: you could*believe in anything with that thinking
Theist: Well, that's why God gives us free will
Theist: So we can choose
Theist: We must have faith
Skeptic: so an omniscient god needs/wants us to believe despite his efforts to make sure there is no evidence
Skeptic: what would a perfect, omniscient god get out of this
Skeptic: plus there is no reason to think god has given us free will
Skeptic: as far as we can tell we dont have it in the way we like to think about it
Theist: If he gave you evidence then there would be no free will
Skeptic: yes there would
Skeptic: its just that that free will would go with th eevidence
Skeptic: just becuase you follow the evidence doesnt take away free will
Skeptic: it does nothing for it
Theist: Would you be able to willingly not believe in god if he made his existence aparent?
Skeptic: you could do that
Skeptic: you would have just as much free will
Skeptic: i dont think you get free will
Skeptic: free will is not based on not having evidence
Theist: Once he is obious you cannot freely choose to follow him
Skeptic: its not based on making choices without reasons or logic
Skeptic: yes you can
Skeptic: i believe that my mother is my mother
Skeptic: i have the choice
Skeptic: i could chose not to believe that
Skeptic: to not follow the evidence
Skeptic: but it does nothing for or again my free will to have evidence
Theist: You couldn't do that truthfully
Theist: Think about it
Skeptic: you could
Skeptic: if you believed it to be true
Theist: Prove it
Skeptic: you believe in god becuase you have faith?
Skeptic: becuase you know deep down he is real and true?
Theist: Not only do I have faith but I see his creation as sufficient evidence!
Skeptic: you see his creation as evidence of him.. when you dont know he created it
Skeptic: that makes no sense
Skeptic: and also i can prove it
Skeptic: are you saying people dont ever chose to not believe in evidence?
Skeptic: i know many many people
Theist: What are you talking about
Skeptic: that dont believe things that are scientifically proven true
Theist: I know he created everything
Theist: Are yyou serious?
Theist: It says so in the bible, the first chapter!
Skeptic: oh, sorry, i dont take ancient, desert, human sacrifice mythology as accurate representations of reality.
Skeptic: also the jesus story is a copied one
Skeptic: there are many many many character almost identical to the jesus character in th bible
Skeptic: the bible is man made
Theist: They copied our book
Theist: don't you see?
Skeptic: they pre date christ
Skeptic: and there would be no need for a conspiracy, they are all myths and dont claim to be anything els
Theist: well, I don't believe you
Skeptic: have you heard of horus?
Theist: You need to prove that
Theist: no i have not
Skeptic: well heres some research
Skeptic: but do your own
Skeptic: Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger42, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old. Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist." He had 12 disciples. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead. He walked on water. Horus was transfigured on the Mount. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected. He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc. He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys"). Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story. In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child"48 - and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra49, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced50. Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to water to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier pagan mystery religions.
Skeptic: have a read
Skeptic: i have a number of others
Theist: How do I know this is true and you just didn't make it up?
Skeptic: christianity is a plagiarism of pagan mythology
Skeptic: and i said do some research if you want to know the truth
Skeptic: most of the christian holidays are directly copied from pagan mythology
Theist: The truth is in the bible
Skeptic: clearly not
Theist: this is satans trying to deceive you
Theist: open your eyes
Skeptic: ok, one sec
Skeptic: so no matter what evidence goes against your faith. even if everything contradict everything you get from the bible. you will just think the devil is trying to deceive you?
Skeptic: and you dont see how you are set up to never progress your world view?
Skeptic: thats a perfect way to never learn anything true
Theist: Look, I just want to live my life in peace. I don't want to go to hell
Skeptic: there is no hell
Theist: I don't want you to go to hell either
Theist: I advice you to read the bible and learn the truth
Skeptic: then i have good news for you
Skeptic: its not the truth
Skeptic: we have seen that
Theist: How do you know that?
Skeptic: becuase the jesus stories are coppied
Theist: What if they copied? It doesn't mean anything
Skeptic: yes it does... it means it is copied from mythology
Skeptic: so its mythology
Theist: Well, look at this
Theist: Billgates as a college drop out that made a big company and became a millonare
Theist: steve jobs was a college drop out and made a company and became a millonare
Theist: Acording to your logic one of then is not real
Theist: Just cause the stories apear copied doesn't mean anything
Skeptic: they are both humans that dropped out colledge in my view lol
Skeptic: im not saying jesus didnt exist
Theist: Maybe is just coincidence
Skeptic: you heard of krishna?
Skeptic: Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") His father was a carpenter.54 His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh. He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants. He was of royal descent. He was baptized in the River Ganges. He worked miracles and wonders. He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind. Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love. "He lived poor and he loved the poor." He was transfigured in front of his disciples. In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.58 He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."59 He is the second person of the Trinity, and proclaimed himself the "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father." He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence." Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.
Skeptic: they all are copied from the same ancient pagan mythological stories
Theist: Did you not listen to me?
Theist: Maybe they are not copied
Theist: Maybe is just coinsidence
Skeptic: these predate jesus...
Theist: Plus, how do I know this is true?
Skeptic: i told you to research it
Theist: Maybe it is an atheist fugery
Skeptic: atheists are not out to scam the world that there is no god
Skeptic: its just that that seems to be the case
Theist: Look, I don't think this will change my mind
Skeptic: im not here to change your mind
Theist: Then why show me this?
Skeptic: becuase its interesting, i enjoy the bible and many aspects of religion.
Skeptic: but its not accurate
Skeptic: and its not the word of a divine being
Theist: So you find joy destroying people's faith?
Skeptic: its mans first attempt at philosophy at law and even at medicine
Theist: You're sick
Skeptic: i dont see anything wrong with critical thinking towards world views. you dont think so?
Skeptic: i see it in the same light as critical thinking about politics
Skeptic: if i said the reason a political party were liars or not very good. would you be so offended?
Theist: Look, you're an atheist right?
Skeptic: not sure
Skeptic: i already said a cause is possible
Skeptic: so take from that what you will
Theist: Well, you do know that you can't go to heaven if you don't believe Jesus is your savior?
Skeptic: there is no heaven, celestial reward and punishment are used to control people
Theist: What if your wrong?
Theist: What if you go to hell for wondering around?
Skeptic: i dont base my world view on fear
Theist: Me neither
Theist: I don't think I'll go to hell
Theist: I'll followed the commandments to the letter
Skeptic: no one does
Theist: Maybe you don't
Skeptic: i mean no one thinks they are going to hell
Skeptic: there is no hell
Theist: How do you know there is no hell? How can you claim that?
Skeptic: ancient princes found that slaves worked easier and better if they has a celestial punishment and reward
Skeptic: that carried on to religions becuase it works perfectly
Skeptic: it was good at the time, becuase it made sure people didnt misbehave
Skeptic: but that doesnt make it true
Theist: Those false religions died out
Theist: Only the true one survived
Skeptic: all the other of hundreds of religions?
Theist: Well, maybe a few survived
Theist: but that is because they haven't read the gospels
Skeptic: im sure they dont say that about your faith
Skeptic: just about all religions claim to be the one true one
Skeptic: you cant all be
Skeptic: and so its either one of them are, or none
Skeptic: i know which is more likley
Theist: They are just deceived. Its because that's what their parent teach them since they are kinds
Skeptic: and thats not what happend to you?
Skeptic: you grow up in india?
Skeptic: or Bangladesh ?
Skeptic: or Mongolia?
Skeptic: or asia?
Theist: Well, but I was born here and I've read the bible. So I know that is true
Theist: He haven't proven that atheism is true.
Skeptic: i already said a cause is possible ....
Skeptic: and you skipped what we wrere saying
Skeptic: where you from?
Theist: Then what are you arguing?
Skeptic: that their is no reason to assume it was/is conscious
Skeptic: so where you from?
Theist: I'm not assuming anything
Theist: I've read the bible and I know it's true
Skeptic: weve been through the bible
Skeptic: so where you from?
Theist: I'm from America
Skeptic: if you were born is india you would be a different religion, if you were born in mongolia you would be a different religion, if you were born is asian or russia or lots of places. just as you said "They are just deceived. Its because that's what their parent teach them since they are kinds"
Skeptic: thats you
Skeptic: you believe what you believe becuase its the faith that surrounds you
Theist: Even if I had been born in India, If I had read the bible I would've known it is the word of God
Skeptic: im sure the muslims say the same about the qu'ran
Theist: Don't bring the muslims, they are just crazy
Skeptic: they are in exactly the same position that Christianity was in hundreds of years ago
Theist: Who the hell thinks it is okay to get into a plane full of people and fly into a building full of more people?
Skeptic: remember the crusades? well not remember. heard of it?
Theist: This is what not believing in Jesus leads you
Skeptic: all done in the name of god
Skeptic: in the name of christianity
Theist: Crusades were because the muslims denied christians access to the holy land
Skeptic: exactly lol
Theist: We they had to defend our right
Skeptic: the Christians were given land by the celestial estate agent, and this gave them the right to slaughter people
Skeptic: its actually more sick then the terrorist bombers
Skeptic: they killed way wayway way way more anyway
Theist: It would happen if the muslims just let us go trought
Theist: It was the muslims fault
Skeptic: it was there fault lo
Theist: I missed the not*
Skeptic: it there fault we attacked and slaughtred them
Theist: What were they suppost to do?
Skeptic: not kill them lol
Theist: They asked nicely but they wouldn't listen
Theist: If a man blocked the access to your house what would you have done?
Theist: If there was no police, of course
Skeptic: kill him?
Theist has disconnected.