Skeptical of UFOs
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03-09-2013, 10:57 PM
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
(01-09-2013 01:39 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'm not sure what to think of these, everyone's descriptions of UFOs are much different from that. I didn't see any glowing, maneuvering things, not in the daylight, anyway. I think aliens have reserved these fancy acrobatic vessels to play spectacles above major cities of the world. What I saw were just cargo ships Big Grin

Not true. There are many cases, even footage, of cigar shaped craft.

(01-09-2013 04:00 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I was talking to my friend in my Scientific Studies class about the Ancient Aliens 'documentary' and my teach heard me and decided to give the class a small lecture about what aliens would most likely be like. Here's a cut down version:

". . . The only species which seek to expand their territory known on Earth are all aggressive species. Including humans, we even seek to expand into space. . .
(Based on this observation that aggressive species seek to expand)
What would come to Earth would not be ET. It would be the thing that ate ET.
"

I wish I could remember the whole discussion he had word for word, but alas.

When it comes to Aliens and UFO's I think i agree with Steven Hawking on the matter. Humans making contact with them would be very bad for us.

Also; one thing about the "UFO" classification.
As previously mentioned into this thread, UFO stands for "Unidentified Flying Object". This annoys me, why? Because it is redundant: by calling something a UFO, you have named it, thus identified it making it no longer a UFO, by definition.

I agree and disagree about aggressive aliens. I'm sure they are out there, but I don't think it is going to be the majority. We are just attributing our characteristics to the aliens. Similar in how we envision them as humanoids. I would hope that a civilization that has made it to a point where they have mastered space and time would not deal with petty things such as war. We war to gain something. What would the aliens gain by destroying other intelligent beings? They don't need our planet. There are zillions of other planets out there. We don't pose any threat to them. The universe is immense... they don't need to rule our territory. The only possible motives for wiping out other races would be for:

1) Fun
2) Ego
3) Experiment

Back in high school, one of my English teachers asked us to come up with a theory about what UFO's were. One girl in the class came up with a very interesting theory...

UFO's are advanced time traveling ships piloted by human beings from the future. The widespread accounts of humanoid features are true. They are gray with enlarged eyes with completely black pupils because in the future, our pollution caused sunlight to be blocked. We somehow managed to survive and that is why we evolved these features. The big heads are because our brains grew bigger which gave us more intelligence. These future humans invented these time machines to travel back in time to observe what humans did that led to a dark, polluted world.

Pretty cool I think and in hindsight, amazing that it came from a 10th grader's mind.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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04-09-2013, 01:04 AM
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
http://ancientaliensdebunked.com/

The link is to ancient aliens debunked. This is a 3 hour movie ripping these con artists on the so-called History Channel a new asshole.

The web site gives you the ability to pick and choose what segments you want to watch because 3 hours of an ass-kicking, even when fully deserved, is a long time to spend.
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06-09-2013, 01:01 PM
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
Once upon a time, maybe, some of Mars landed on earth; but there really doesn't seem to be aliens beyond that kinda thing.

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06-09-2013, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2013 04:07 PM by darv.)
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
Are you telling me Men in Black was fake and Dennis Rodman isn't really an alien?!?

On a more serious note, I find it hard to believe that any species with the intelligence required to travel all that way would do so just to probe a few hillbillies and kill some cows....
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06-09-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
(03-09-2013 10:57 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Not true. There are many cases, even footage, of cigar shaped craft.
So... you aren't going to tell me I'm full of crap for seeing something, like all these bad meanie skeptics around? Unsure

(01-09-2013 04:00 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I was talking to my friend in my Scientific Studies class about the Ancient Aliens 'documentary' and my teach heard me and decided to give the class a small lecture about what aliens would most likely be like. Here's a cut down version:

". . . The only species which seek to expand their territory known on Earth are all aggressive species. Including humans, we even seek to expand into space. . .
(Based on this observation that aggressive species seek to expand)
What would come to Earth would not be ET. It would be the thing that ate ET.
"
I wish I could remember the whole discussion he had word for word, but alas.

When it comes to Aliens and UFO's I think i agree with Steven Hawking on the matter. Humans making contact with them would be very bad for us.
I don't think so. Expanding species compete and competition means conflict, waste, destruction and not travelling into space. Space seems empty, lifeless, without big threats or gains. It is not for conquering, it is for exploration and that is a peaceful activity. Aggressive individuals want to put missiles in Earth's orbit, not go explore Alpha Centauri for potential foes. Just compare how much NASA got compared to Iraq war budget. Bad people have small imagination.

Secondly, I grew up on videos of astronauts saying how they saw UFO, space craft very often, when they were in the space or walking on the moon. I saw how Dr Steven M. Greer gathered former military officers to testify in public, in the big hall in New York on TV, how they observed UFOs during their military career. They even described cases when UFO hovered above a missile silo and disabled all the nuclear warheads in it.
I have no idea where he got these people, but that's what they said. Project Disclosure, I think. So this gives me hope that any evil species newly in the cosmos will probably quickly bump into the mighty good guys with vastly superior technology, who will not let them out of the planet until they learn some manners.

I subscribe to the "dark matter aliens theory", saying that most of (sentient) life in the universe is made of matter similar to ours, but based on weakly interacting massive particles, so they are not visible unless they choose to push the button to materialize themselves, densify the atomic structure, make themselves visible and solid.

(03-09-2013 10:57 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  I agree and disagree about aggressive aliens. I'm sure they are out there, but I don't think it is going to be the majority. We are just attributing our characteristics to the aliens. Similar in how we envision them as humanoids.
Humanoid shape is not unlikely. Space travel needs intellect and toolmaking. Toolmaking needs hands. Hands must be free, so the thing is going to walk on hind legs to keep them free. Straight and tall posture is good for overlooking the terrain and straight neck keeps vocal chords free for greater range of voice expression. At least two eyes are needed for good 3D vision.

All life except some mollusks and other invertebrates is symmetric. So aliens are likely to be symmetric. They will have even number of almost everything, legs, arms, eyes, nostrils...
Simple evolutionary biology. Humanoids are not a coincidence. If we ever meet aliens, they will surely show a greater range of appearance than a Japanese sumo fighter, Bambutte pygmy, Aborigine, Norwegian berserker or an American suburbanite, but they will be recognizable as humanoid toolmakers.
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07-09-2013, 04:59 AM
RE: Skeptical of UFOs



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09-09-2013, 06:22 PM
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
(06-09-2013 04:25 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So... you aren't going to tell me I'm full of crap for seeing something, like all these bad meanie skeptics around? Unsure

No I won't. I can't explain what you saw or what exactly is on those videos, but that doesn't mean it's aliens.

(06-09-2013 04:25 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Humanoid shape is not unlikely. Space travel needs intellect and toolmaking. Toolmaking needs hands. Hands must be free, so the thing is going to walk on hind legs to keep them free. Straight and tall posture is good for overlooking the terrain and straight neck keeps vocal chords free for greater range of voice expression. At least two eyes are needed for good 3D vision.

All life except some mollusks and other invertebrates is symmetric. So aliens are likely to be symmetric. They will have even number of almost everything, legs, arms, eyes, nostrils...
Simple evolutionary biology. Humanoids are not a coincidence. If we ever meet aliens, they will surely show a greater range of appearance than a Japanese sumo fighter, Bambutte pygmy, Aborigine, Norwegian berserker or an American suburbanite, but they will be recognizable as humanoid toolmakers.

Again, you're attributing Earthly characteristics to aliens. We need to be upright to see our terrain? Yes, with the biology as we know it on Earth. Who's to say there isn't some intelligent blob that can morph to whatever shape needed? Who's to say there isn't some 50 legged aliens with extendable necks? Who's to say there aren't telepathic aliens? We just don't know. There are an infinite amount of possibilities as to what shape an alien can take. Of all those, we constantly imagine them as humanoid. I think that's a bit absurd. Unless we are going on the theory of a common universal ancestry.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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10-09-2013, 04:45 AM (This post was last modified: 10-09-2013 05:03 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
(09-09-2013 06:22 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Again, you're attributing Earthly characteristics to aliens. We need to be upright to see our terrain? Yes, with the biology as we know it on Earth. Who's to say there isn't some intelligent blob that can morph to whatever shape needed? Who's to say there isn't some 50 legged aliens with extendable necks? Who's to say there aren't telepathic aliens? We just don't know. There are an infinite amount of possibilities as to what shape an alien can take. Of all those, we constantly imagine them as humanoid. I think that's a bit absurd. Unless we are going on the theory of a common universal ancestry.
You could do some reading on convergent evolution. There are very similar forms that developed independently, without ancestry, just by the necessity to follow the same function. Down to genetic level! Animals evolved the same DNA sequences to solve the same problems.

There is definitely not an infinite amount of possibilities, the environment of planetary ecosystem pretty much cuts them down to very few. I don't say about artificial or genetically-engineered aliens, these can have any shape. But if it evolved on a planet, it will look like something from our planet. For example, there will be temperature differentials and means of regulating heat, such as hair, fur, feathers, big ears or lizardly crests. There will be change of these as they develop clothes and A/C. As I say, they will face the same problems as we do as planet-dwellers and they will develop mostly similar solutions. There might be of course a few solutions we haven't seen yet, or had seen but will not readily identify.

Intellect does not develop just out of nowhere. It develops as a result of activities, that demand intellect, such as toolmaking, cooperation, war, trade... This is why we do not see intellect in dolphins, whales and elephants, or blobs of ooze. Intellect can only develop in forms that can express it tangibly, outwardly in the world.
Remember, form follows function. An amorphous blob is likely to stay amorphous forever. Morphing hands or other appendages on demand is a strain on the organism, they are not likely to be as good limbs as the permanent limbs of specialized animals, thus the blob would lose to them anyway.

As for 50 legs, what would these be good for? Stability at best, not speed. We can make a very good guess that the potential intelligent aliens would be the rats and humans of their homeworld, an ecological niche that is defined by its adaptability. Specialization means stagnation, use of too highly effective tools such as fast legs, claws and teeth neglects the use of other tools, such as brain and hands.

As for telepathic aliens... I don't know about that. I'd say if telepathy is possible at all, then we all are potentially telepathic, there is no special trick to it. But I have virtually zero experience with that. There is no specific mechanism to it, except perhaps the most general one - some kind of wave transmission in the environment.
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10-09-2013, 06:38 PM
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
(10-09-2013 04:45 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(09-09-2013 06:22 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Again, you're attributing Earthly characteristics to aliens. We need to be upright to see our terrain? Yes, with the biology as we know it on Earth. Who's to say there isn't some intelligent blob that can morph to whatever shape needed? Who's to say there isn't some 50 legged aliens with extendable necks? Who's to say there aren't telepathic aliens? We just don't know. There are an infinite amount of possibilities as to what shape an alien can take. Of all those, we constantly imagine them as humanoid. I think that's a bit absurd. Unless we are going on the theory of a common universal ancestry.
You could do some reading on convergent evolution. There are very similar forms that developed independently, without ancestry, just by the necessity to follow the same function. Down to genetic level! Animals evolved the same DNA sequences to solve the same problems.

There is definitely not an infinite amount of possibilities, the environment of planetary ecosystem pretty much cuts them down to very few. I don't say about artificial or genetically-engineered aliens, these can have any shape. But if it evolved on a planet, it will look like something from our planet. For example, there will be temperature differentials and means of regulating heat, such as hair, fur, feathers, big ears or lizardly crests. There will be change of these as they develop clothes and A/C. As I say, they will face the same problems as we do as planet-dwellers and they will develop mostly similar solutions. There might be of course a few solutions we haven't seen yet, or had seen but will not readily identify.

Intellect does not develop just out of nowhere. It develops as a result of activities, that demand intellect, such as toolmaking, cooperation, war, trade... This is why we do not see intellect in dolphins, whales and elephants, or blobs of ooze. Intellect can only develop in forms that can express it tangibly, outwardly in the world.
Remember, form follows function. An amorphous blob is likely to stay amorphous forever. Morphing hands or other appendages on demand is a strain on the organism, they are not likely to be as good limbs as the permanent limbs of specialized animals, thus the blob would lose to them anyway.

As for 50 legs, what would these be good for? Stability at best, not speed. We can make a very good guess that the potential intelligent aliens would be the rats and humans of their homeworld, an ecological niche that is defined by its adaptability. Specialization means stagnation, use of too highly effective tools such as fast legs, claws and teeth neglects the use of other tools, such as brain and hands.

As for telepathic aliens... I don't know about that. I'd say if telepathy is possible at all, then we all are potentially telepathic, there is no special trick to it. But I have virtually zero experience with that. There is no specific mechanism to it, except perhaps the most general one - some kind of wave transmission in the environment.

Realistically there would only be a couple of physical traits that would be necessary:

1) Some type of hand, tentacle, or other appendage that is capable of grasping and manipulating its environment (e.g.: toolmaking).
2) Some type of communication that allows for the accumulation of multi-generational knowledge (e.g.: books).
3) Various sensory organs capable of adequately interpreting their surroundings.

Beyond that, it's pretty much "anything goes."



...as long as their females have big titties, of course. Big Grin

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10-09-2013, 07:52 PM
RE: Skeptical of UFOs
(10-09-2013 06:38 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  Realistically there would only be a couple of physical traits that would be necessary:

1) Some type of hand, tentacle, or other appendage that is capable of grasping and manipulating its environment (e.g.: toolmaking).
2) Some type of communication that allows for the accumulation of multi-generational knowledge (e.g.: books).
3) Various sensory organs capable of adequately interpreting their surroundings.

Beyond that, it's pretty much "anything goes."

...as long as their females have big titties, of course. Big Grin
Well, you're right. For example, octopus is a very intelligent species and they kind of look like tits. Maybe tits of a woman in her 80's, but nonetheless. They have better eyes than humans and could communicate by changing color patterns. I'd say octopus is an extreme case of how alien an intelligent alien might look like.

My only concern is, that only dry land species can be properly toolmaking, because they need fire to make sophisticated tools. Aquatic species would likely never achieve space travel. Dry land is space travel for them. You could argue that aquatic beings could use fire of undersea volcanic fissures and vents, but let me remind you that water is a much better conductor of heat than air and that there would be many cooked fish in that case.
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