Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
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09-02-2017, 12:28 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 12:22 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Languages can operate similarly to math.

Unsubstantiated assertion.

Languages are used to make statements about reality. Math is a language that works with quantities. But to show you how they can operate similarly, I'll give this example.

One plus one equals two.
1+1=2.

These are both sentences. One is a mathematical sentence while the other is in English.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-02-2017, 12:35 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:22 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Math is a language.

Maybe so, but it's an extremely specialized language, as is symbolic logic. They can both do things that are difficult if not impossible to do in ordinary languages like English. But the reverse is also true. Try reducing Finnegans Wake to mathematics.

Quote:Languages can operate similarly to math.

But they generally don't. That's what mathematics is for.
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09-02-2017, 12:36 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:21 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  When an audio engineer designs a speaker with a vibrating membrane and a box around it, and a huge magnet and a coil, when he designs that speaker to create well directed waves of pressure that propagate through a room full of air, how does he (accidentally?) include the transportation of your "not material" *feeling* that a brain has when listening to this music? What is it and how is it transported from the speaker to the ear?

This is an awesome question. It gets at which type of dualism is preferable. The immaterial aspect of the waves is not present when the engineer builds the speaker. It's contained within the wave. Information can be contained in the physical (some dualists would say it must be contained in the physical) but understood or interpreted in the aphysical and by aphysical means. It has two components. It has it's physical properties and it has it's content/ meaning. The same goes for a line of code or a word being written on a page. The immaterial is not transported physically in the wave. It's a property of the wave itself.

Quote:Please tell me, i am all ears, and i bet all the hundreds of software and hardware engineers, as well as mechanical engineers at my office will be literally excited by the breaking news i am going to report after you enlightened me (and everyone else on TTA).

Well it has nothing to do with the engineer. The engineer didn't author the immaterial aspect of the wave. That was the author of the music.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-02-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:35 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 12:22 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Math is a language.

Maybe so, but it's an extremely specialized language, as is symbolic logic. They can both do things that are difficult if not impossible to do in ordinary languages like English. But the reverse is also true. Try reducing Finnegans Wake to mathematics.

Quote:Languages can operate similarly to math.

But they generally don't. That's what mathematics is for.

I don't disagree with you. I'm just trying to illustrate that it can be done.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-02-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:26 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I gave you these links that all demonstrate Kuhn was in fact a revolutionary. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Thomas-S-Kuhn
http://www.iep.utm.edu/kuhn-ts/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cro...fic-truth/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/kuhn/

YOU have not demonstrated anything. The links that work are opinions. Fapping "about" science is not science. (Those that can, *do*, those that can't *teach*)

Quote:If I were remarkable smart I'd be in college? What? So everyone is just mildly intelligent and then they enter college and gain 20 IQ points? Being smart does not mean you're in college. And having been to college doesn't grant you intelligence.

Thanks for making up a strawman and presenting it as (lying) what I said.
If you really were as smart as you think, you'd be in some sort of advanced placement.

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09-02-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 11:40 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You demonstrably do not, because you consistently fail to understand what it says about minds. You instead post things like "liking one type of music over another implies dualism", or "materialism cannot deal with the existence of minds", and so on.

You can say that you understand these things all you like, but your responses continually show this to not be the case. And there is nothing wrong with this - showing an interest in things you do not understand is a good thing - but you need to stop assuming that you already understand things when the people who actually study them are continually forced to correct you.

"There are also many familiar objections to both materialism and dualism. For example, it is often said that materialism cannot truly explain just how or why some brain states are conscious, and that there is an important “explanatory gap” between mind and matter. On the other hand, dualism faces the problem of explaining how a non-physical substance or mental state can causally interact with the physical body."
Source: http://www.iep.utm.edu/consciou/

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-02-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 12:26 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I gave you these links that all demonstrate Kuhn was in fact a revolutionary. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Thomas-S-Kuhn
http://www.iep.utm.edu/kuhn-ts/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cro...fic-truth/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/kuhn/

YOU have not demonstrated anything. The links that work are opinions. Fapping "about" science is not science. (Those that can, *do*, those that can't *teach*)

Quote:If I were remarkable smart I'd be in college? What? So everyone is just mildly intelligent and then they enter college and gain 20 IQ points? Being smart does not mean you're in college. And having been to college doesn't grant you intelligence.

Thanks for making up a strawman and presenting it as (lying) what I said.
If you really were as smart as you think, you'd be in some sort of advanced placement.

How was that a straw man? I literally repeated your words in my response. I am in advanced placement by the way. Why would you think I'm not? I've taken AP Physics, AP Calculus, not to mention I took Algebra II during the summer before sophomore year just so I could take AP Calc in junior year. I've taken AP European history and I'm now taking AP Stats and AP US History. Is five AP classes not advanced enough for you?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-02-2017, 12:48 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2017 01:48 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:22 PM)Naielis Wrote:  My speaking and writing style is similar to lecture.

Why do you assume that people would not be put off by somebody they do not know starting to lecture to them?

Quote: I'm not talking down to you I promise. I assume in any given conversation that the person I'm talking to knows more.

That does not come across at all. You come across as incredibly arrogant and self-righteous. Perhaps if you started asking what people believed and why and stopped trying to cram everybody into nice neat little boxes based on strict adherence to specific philosophies you might do better. The world is rarely as black and white as you seem to want to make it.

an example....

(09-02-2017 12:20 PM)Naielis Wrote:  If you hold that the mind and brain are identical, then you are a strict materialist. If you hold that the mind is caused by the brain, then you're talking about physicalism or another form of materialism.

I don't think either materialism or physicalism [as you've distinguished them] completely captures what is going on because I don't think we understand all the issues fully enough to pin it down to that level. Both are interesting ways to think about it and both contribute to how I view it but I have no interest in picking one over the other and deciding to adopt it as THE truth.

The only thing I am sure of is that I see no evidence at all for dualism.

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09-02-2017, 12:54 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2017 12:58 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:45 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 12:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU have not demonstrated anything. The links that work are opinions. Fapping "about" science is not science. (Those that can, *do*, those that can't *teach*)


Thanks for making up a strawman and presenting it as (lying) what I said.
If you really were as smart as you think, you'd be in some sort of advanced placement.

How was that a straw man? I literally repeated your words in my response. I am in advanced placement by the way. Why would you think I'm not? I've taken AP Physics, AP Calculus, not to mention I took Algebra II during the summer before sophomore year just so I could take AP Calc in junior year. I've taken AP European history and I'm now taking AP Stats and AP US History. Is five AP classes not advanced enough for you?

You implied that I said going to / being in college grants someone IQ points. I never said that, and you know it.

No 5 is not enough. Half the high school world is in AP. If you were 1/2 as intelligent as you think you are, you would be taking COLLEGE level courses. And I see you left out Biology, you repeatedly make assertions about how neurological systems and brains and perception works. You are totally ignorant about the things you go on about, (dualism and intentionality).

17 YOs "lecturing" at people, is hilarious. Facepalm
You are UNQUALIFIED.

LMFAO.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-02-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 12:48 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-02-2017 12:22 PM)Naielis Wrote:  My speaking and writing style is similar to lecture.

Why do you assume that people would not be put off by somebody they do not know starting to lecture to them?

Quote: I'm not talking down to you I promise. I assume in any given conversation that the person I'm talking to knows more.

That does not come across at all. You come across as incredibly arrogant and self-righteous. Perhaps if you started asking what people believed and why and stopped trying to cram everybody into nice neat little boxes based on strict adherence to specific philosophies you might do better. The world is rarely as black and white as you seem to want to make it.

an example....

(09-02-2017 12:20 PM)Naielis Wrote:  If you hold that the mind and brain are identical, then you are a strict materialist. If you hold that the mind is caused by the brain, then you're talking about physicalism or another form of materialism.

I don't think either materialism or physicalism completely captures what is going on because I don't think we understand all the issues fully enough to pin it down to that level. Both are interesting ways to think about it and both contribute to how I view it but I have no interest in picking one over the other and deciding to adopt it as THE truth.

The only thing I am sure of is that I see no evidence at all for dualism.

Well I certainly think there are arguments for dualism based on basic observations, both through introspection and perception. But I do tend to be quite strict with definitions and consistent usage of definitions within a given conversation. It's important for total comprehension of a concept to have decent terminology. But let me link you to some articles on dualism and the problems with materialism. http://www.iep.utm.edu/consciou/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dualism/

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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