Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
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10-02-2017, 11:15 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(10-02-2017 10:54 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 10:17 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Skepticism vs pragmatism isn't a problem unless you foolishly commit yourself to one or the other at all costs.

It isn't even a problem then.

The thing is that Naielis does not actually understand what either position entails beyond a one-sentence sound bite. Really, that's his understanding of all the philosophies that he's roped into this mess of a thread - one sentence, and oftentimes not even the right sentence.

I defer to your opinion because you've obviously studied this in depth where I'm just generally acquainted with the subject but, in my defense, I did note that the problem is only if you commit "at all costs". If somebody insists on questioning everything then they will be unable to ever make a decision; if they accept everything that seems to work with no questioning then they are going to make bad decisions.

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10-02-2017, 11:22 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
It is healthy to continue to question everything to some degree: to analyze your methods, your assumptions, your conclusions, everything. You can always look for ways to improve. But that doesn't mean discarding everything. That's just the hyper-scepticism of the insistent solipsist.

This binary thinking is a big problem for almost all woo folk in my experience. They live in the same grey area as the rest of us, whether it's convenient or not.

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10-02-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(10-02-2017 11:15 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 10:54 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It isn't even a problem then.

The thing is that Naielis does not actually understand what either position entails beyond a one-sentence sound bite. Really, that's his understanding of all the philosophies that he's roped into this mess of a thread - one sentence, and oftentimes not even the right sentence.

I defer to your opinion because you've obviously studied this in depth where I'm just generally acquainted with the subject but, in my defense, I did note that the problem is only if you commit "at all costs". If somebody insists on questioning everything then they will be unable to ever make a decision; if they accept everything that seems to work with no questioning then they are going to make bad decisions.

I've studied skepticism for a while now. I was a Pyrrhonist for a while. I was also a Pragmatist long ago. I think you don't understand these views. They are completely incompatible.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism/
http://www.iep.utm.edu/pragmati/

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10-02-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
Yeah, everyday pragmatism isn't about claiming things are true. You're talking past your audience here. I agree it is very problematic to claim such truth, it's just a bad position altogether. Absolute truth is a worthless concept in reality.

It's useful to assume or even "pretend" they are true. That's normal pragmatism.

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10-02-2017, 11:40 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(10-02-2017 11:33 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, everyday pragmatism isn't about claiming things are true. You're talking past your audience here. I agree it is very problematic to claim such truth, it's just a bad position altogether. Absolute truth is a worthless concept in reality.

It's useful to assume or even "pretend" they are true. That's normal pragmatism.

But that's exactly my point. This is the philosophy section of the forum. We aren't here to discuss everyday pragmatism or skepticism. We're talking about epistemological systems. Skepticism as a system is incompatible with Pragmatism.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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10-02-2017, 11:40 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(10-02-2017 08:08 AM)Naielis Wrote:  The claims of science can be viewed as probabilistic assessments based on repetition of experiments where the probability of a hypothesis being false approaches zero as the amount of experiments that fail to falsify it approaches infinity. But the foundation of the scientific method needs to be certain. If it isn't, then the whole things falls apart.

LOL... are you for real?

Are you actually claiming that the theory of gravity is merely a "hypothesis", and its falsification is merely "approaching" infinity.

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10-02-2017, 11:42 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2017 11:46 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(10-02-2017 11:40 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 11:33 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, everyday pragmatism isn't about claiming things are true. You're talking past your audience here. I agree it is very problematic to claim such truth, it's just a bad position altogether. Absolute truth is a worthless concept in reality.

It's useful to assume or even "pretend" they are true. That's normal pragmatism.

But that's exactly my point. This is the philosophy section of the forum. We aren't here to discuss everyday pragmatism or skepticism. We're talking about epistemological systems. Skepticism as a system is incompatible with Pragmatism.

Okay. Well, I'd say that version of pragmatism is just flawed. Scepticism isn't really relevant to that. That pragmatism is incompatible with reality. I've never heard anyone else trying to use it, not even scientists. So... you want scientists to stop claiming truth? They don't claim truth. They make tentative probabilistic conclusions based on the evidence. So I'm not understanding your objection.

What do you want them to do?

Absolute certainty is a red herring. It's best dropped for anything not inside an abstract system.

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10-02-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(10-02-2017 11:40 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 08:08 AM)Naielis Wrote:  The claims of science can be viewed as probabilistic assessments based on repetition of experiments where the probability of a hypothesis being false approaches zero as the amount of experiments that fail to falsify it approaches infinity. But the foundation of the scientific method needs to be certain. If it isn't, then the whole things falls apart.

LOL... are you for real?

Are you actually claiming that the theory of gravity is merely a "hypothesis", and its falsification is merely "approaching" infinity.

Weeping

I didn't mention gravity specifically, but yes. What justification is there for the Universal Law of Gravitation? There's no a priori justification so it encounters the Problem of Induction. How do Pragmatists solve this?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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10-02-2017, 11:52 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(10-02-2017 11:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 11:40 AM)Naielis Wrote:  But that's exactly my point. This is the philosophy section of the forum. We aren't here to discuss everyday pragmatism or skepticism. We're talking about epistemological systems. Skepticism as a system is incompatible with Pragmatism.

Okay. Well, I'd say that version of pragmatism is just flawed. Scepticism isn't really relevant to that. That pragmatism is incompatible with reality. I've never heard anyone else trying to use it, not even scientists. So... you want scientists to stop claiming truth? They don't claim truth. They make tentative probabilistic conclusions based on the evidence. So I'm not understanding your objection.

What do you want them to do?

Absolute certainty is a red herring. It's best dropped for anything not inside an abstract system.

I want them to argue on a solid foundation instead of making assumptions and then begging the question by saying "it works".

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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10-02-2017, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2017 02:57 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
A solid foundation? Like what?

Why is it not solid? It sounds like you want to treat reality like an abstract system so you can make definitive statements about it. It isn't, no matter how convenient that may be. You need science to learn about reality. Replacing science with... just philosophy, or whatever else you intend to replace it with, isn't going to achieve anything. Convince me otherwise.

Science is about modeling reality. It seems to me that your beliefs can't be supported by science, so you want to replace it with something that will. If this isn't the case, what exactly do you think science isn't achieving that it could be?

If you're still insisting on absolute truth, you'll be waiting forever. There's no such thing. At some point, we have to accept that there is a limit to what we can learn about reality. We make models, and we test them. That's ultimately all we can do. Why is working not enough for you? What's the problem? We don't just claim it works. We show it works. This is what evidence is about.

What is your actual suggestion? It's easy to dismiss science, but since it does actually work and has produced fantastic results, you'd better have something amazing to take its place.

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