Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
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08-02-2017, 04:31 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(08-02-2017 04:13 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:08 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, "meaning and content" is just another way of saying that sensory stimuli differ from each other, and that they provoke different responses. Your body has learned (either through evolution or conditioning) to respond in particular ways to particular stimuli.

One type of music (or one piece of music) affects you differently than another for the same reasons that the sight of a grizzly bear affects you differently than the sight of a kitten. Different stimuli ("meaning and content"), different responses. As unbeliever has said more than once, this is not complicated.

You're misunderstanding. Content and meaning are not stimuli. They're something derived from an intellect interpreting an event. What I'm saying is that experiences, which are immaterial in nature, are causing material events. If you disagree, I'd love for you to give me five grams of experience.

You're either making stuff up or being deliberately obfuscatory. Music is just sound, and sound is just a series of sensory stimuli. Are you seriously claiming that the body reacts identically to all sensory stimuli, and that only the immaterial "mind" con differentiate? Because that would just be wacky.
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08-02-2017, 04:32 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(08-02-2017 04:13 PM)Naielis Wrote:  What I'm saying is that experiences, which are immaterial in nature, are causing material events. If you disagree, I'd love for you to give me five grams of experience.

And you have that exactly backwards. Physical stimuli cause physical changes in your brain state and those new states are the experiences. If you disagree, I'd love for you to give me some "content" that is not delivered by physical means and is not represented by a change in the physical state of the brain.

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08-02-2017, 04:34 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(08-02-2017 03:56 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Ok so every time I listen to music, it's not the content of the music that causes the release of neurochemicals? In your view, it's senses sending electrical impulses.

Those electrochemical impulses are determined by the content of the music, Naielis.

This is not complicated.

(08-02-2017 03:56 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Ok, but then why do certain electrical impulses get sent when listening to music we like?

Because your brain is wired to behave in certain ways when provided with certain stimuli. Music that you like results in a different neurochemical reaction than music that you do not.

(08-02-2017 03:56 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Your view completely does away with meaning and content.

No, it doesn't.

Do not attempt to tell other people what their arguments are when, as has repeatedly been pointed out to you, you do not actually know what any of the opposing positions say. You are not familiar enough with ontology, materialism, or neuroscience to offer coherent criticism at this point.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-02-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(08-02-2017 04:13 PM)Naielis Wrote:  You're misunderstanding. Content and meaning are not stimuli. They're something derived from an intellect interpreting an event.

"Meaning", yes. "Content", not so much - once again, you seem to have very poorly defined terms.

(08-02-2017 04:13 PM)Naielis Wrote:  What I'm saying is that experiences, which are immaterial in nature, are causing material events.

Experiences are not any more immaterial than a computer program is.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-02-2017, 11:16 PM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(08-02-2017 02:43 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Well if your foundation is constantly changing, you are probably a bit too wishy washy.

Call it that if you wish. I prefer the term "self-correcting for new data."

Quote:You use skepticism? So you're a skeptic? Ok so why aren't you agreeing with me in this thread? Skepticism isn't something you use. It's an entire epistemological system. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism/

I have no problem using skepticism. I don't care that it's also an epistemological system; that is a mere curiosity that does not affect how I use it.

Quote:Philosophy is how we can ground our beliefs and actions.

My beliefs and actions don't need philosophy to ground them. I don't conduct my day-to-day activities on the basis of what a particular philosophical POV says, nor do I intend to. I see philosophy as descriptive, not prescriptive.

Quote:There's one problem: what's the real world? You just assume you can trust your senses to view the real world. What if your senses are failing you?

I don't care. I'm serious: I simply do not care if this is real or an illusion because the reality or non-reality of the world does not affect my interactions with it in any way whatsoever. I could literally be a disembodied brain in a jar on a planet in another dimension and I would *still* get ready to go to Wednesday night band practice, even if I was only going to an illusion of band practice.

*sigh* Solipsism is such a waste of time.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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08-02-2017, 11:28 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2017 06:52 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(08-02-2017 04:13 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:08 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, "meaning and content" is just another way of saying that sensory stimuli differ from each other, and that they provoke different responses. Your body has learned (either through evolution or conditioning) to respond in particular ways to particular stimuli.

One type of music (or one piece of music) affects you differently than another for the same reasons that the sight of a grizzly bear affects you differently than the sight of a kitten. Different stimuli ("meaning and content"), different responses. As unbeliever has said more than once, this is not complicated.

You're misunderstanding. Content and meaning are not stimuli. They're something derived from an intellect interpreting an event. What I'm saying is that experiences, which are immaterial in nature, are causing material events. If you disagree, I'd love for you to give me five grams of experience.

Totally false. There are no "immaterial experiences".
Experiences are totally physical. Sensory input via chemical pathways in neural systems. Damaged/dead brains experience nothing. Sensory input, referenced to learned memories, stored in neurological structures is interpreted by brains. All TOTALLY physical in nature. Your "grams of experience" betrays an utter and total lack of knowledge of Neuro-science, child, and is a false analogy. Without a material brain, you have no experiences. There is no evidence AT ALL for dualism. Go get an education.

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09-02-2017, 07:12 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(08-02-2017 04:34 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 03:56 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Ok so every time I listen to music, it's not the content of the music that causes the release of neurochemicals? In your view, it's senses sending electrical impulses.

Those electrochemical impulses are determined by the content of the music, Naielis.

This is not complicated.

(08-02-2017 03:56 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Ok, but then why do certain electrical impulses get sent when listening to music we like?

Because your brain is wired to behave in certain ways when provided with certain stimuli. Music that you like results in a different neurochemical reaction than music that you do not.

(08-02-2017 03:56 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Your view completely does away with meaning and content.

No, it doesn't.

Do not attempt to tell other people what their arguments are when, as has repeatedly been pointed out to you, you do not actually know what any of the opposing positions say. You are not familiar enough with ontology, materialism, or neuroscience to offer coherent criticism at this point.

I'm very familiar with ontology and materialism. But it's good you acknowledge that music you like makes your brain react differently than music you don't like. Ok so what physical difference is there between the two different kinds of music? Well there's different sound waves. But is that what is causing the release of oxytocin? Or is it that your brain interprets the sound waves and gets the content (music) which then causes a physical reaction?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-02-2017, 07:17 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 07:12 AM)Naielis Wrote:  I'm very familiar with ontology and materialism. But it's good you acknowledge that music you like makes your brain react differently than music you don't like. Ok so what physical difference is there between the two different kinds of music? Well there's different sound waves. But is that what is causing the release of oxytocin? Or is it that your brain interprets the sound waves and gets the content (music) which then causes a physical reaction?

Apparently not familiar enough.
They *ARE sound waves. Period.
Your brain reacts PHYSICALLY to sound waves you have LEARNED you "like". We can WATCH that happen in a PET scan.

Maybe some day you'll get an education.
You have no evidence for dualism.

"Ontology" has nothing at all to do with this question, (but it is a nice big word you throw around to convince yourself you are intelligent).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-02-2017, 07:21 AM
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(08-02-2017 11:16 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Call it that if you wish. I prefer the term "self-correcting for new data."

Changing to account for new data cannot change your epistemological foundation. And science doesn't operate on self-correction for new data.

Quote:I have no problem using skepticism. I don't care that it's also an epistemological system; that is a mere curiosity that does not affect how I use it.

Again, you cannot use skepticism. It isn't a tool to be used. It's not synonymous with doubt or suspicion. It's a complete system.

Quote:My beliefs and actions don't need philosophy to ground them. I don't conduct my day-to-day activities on the basis of what a particular philosophical POV says, nor do I intend to. I see philosophy as descriptive, not prescriptive.

All beliefs need grounding. That is what philosophy does.

Quote:I don't care. I'm serious: I simply do not care if this is real or an illusion because the reality or non-reality of the world does not affect my interactions with it in any way whatsoever. I could literally be a disembodied brain in a jar on a planet in another dimension and I would *still* get ready to go to Wednesday night band practice, even if I was only going to an illusion of band practice.

*sigh* Solipsism is such a waste of time.

Well it's great that you don't care about reality but some of us do. Solipsism is a waste of time. We're not talking about solipsism. We're talking about skepticism.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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09-02-2017, 07:38 AM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2017 09:25 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Skepticism is a Problem for the Pragmatist
(09-02-2017 07:21 AM)Naielis Wrote:  And science doesn't operate on self-correction for new data.

You have no clue how science works. It changes on new data all the time, you ignoramus.
http://exploredia.com/top-10-scientific-...t-century/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of...iscoveries
You really are just a poe/troll, aren't you ?

Quote:Again, you cannot use skepticism. It isn't a tool to be used. It's not synonymous with doubt or suspicion. It's a complete system.

She can use anything she wants, Your Holiness.

Quote:All beliefs need grounding. That is what philosophy does.

Philosophy is insufficient without evidence. Your premises could be wrong, (as they were in your stupid cosmological argument).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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