Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-07-2012, 09:24 PM
Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
http://theunconverted.com/skipping-the-h...elytizing/

Sadly, this is really going to occur in just a few days. Truly outlandish stuff, and a testament to the power of the spell that religious doctrine can cast.

Join the Logic Speaks Community

I am the unconverted
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2012, 09:49 PM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
"So instead, I resign myself to not challenging his beliefs outright, but instead dropping in little nuggets of skepticism and science. Hoping that they act as seeds of sorts."

Considering the damage he will be doing, you could just shoot him.

What if...
you had a friend who had a highly contagious virus. This virus makes one lose one's ability to reason and a side effects is that the victim will be perpetually happy. It is known as the Happy-Slave Virus (HSV). It is passed on through sexual contact and is hereditary. Your friend is going to Africa to have sex with as many people as possible. What do you do?

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2012, 09:56 PM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
"So you're not going to take any provisions? No medication? No teaching material? You're not going to help build things?"

"Why, no. God helps those who help themselves."

"But you could do so much good... make a real difference..."

"Themselves."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Red Celt's post
27-07-2012, 10:12 PM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
(27-07-2012 09:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  "So instead, I resign myself to not challenging his beliefs outright, but instead dropping in little nuggets of skepticism and science. Hoping that they act as seeds of sorts."

Considering the damage he will be doing, you could just shoot him.

What if...
you had a friend who had a highly contagious virus. This virus makes one lose one's ability to reason and a side effects is that the victim will be perpetually happy. It is known as the Happy-Slave Virus (HSV). It is passed on through sexual contact and is hereditary. Your friend is going to Africa to have sex with as many people as possible. What do you do?

Clearly, I'd do exactly what I said in the post. I'd continue to befriend the guy and try to open his mind in subtle ways. He's a coworker - and as mentioned - a genuinely good person.

By the way, your analogy is flawed. In your story, this kid would also have to be completely unaware that he has this contagious virus himself, or that he's going to give it to other people. He would also have to be convinced, instead, that he's actually curing people of a contagious virus not giving it to them.

Join the Logic Speaks Community

I am the unconverted
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2012, 10:16 PM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
(27-07-2012 09:56 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  "So you're not going to take any provisions? No medication? No teaching material? You're not going to help build things?"

"Why, no. God helps those who help themselves."

"But you could do so much good... make a real difference..."

"Themselves."

Yeah, we had that very exchange (minus the last sentence) and the key takeaway is that this kid was thoroughly convinced that they would appreciate his preaching more if he didn't do any kind of actual service for them.

He (and likely his cohorts) have been convinced and/or convinced themselves that this is actually true. That poor people would prefer that you read them the Bible and talk to them about Jesus as opposed to actually helping them in some material way.

He actually believes that he's doing "so much good." He's convinced that he is going to "make a real difference."

Hence my commentary on just how powerful the spell is.

Join the Logic Speaks Community

I am the unconverted
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2012, 10:29 PM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
(27-07-2012 10:12 PM)lightninlives Wrote:  
(27-07-2012 09:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  "So instead, I resign myself to not challenging his beliefs outright, but instead dropping in little nuggets of skepticism and science. Hoping that they act as seeds of sorts."

Considering the damage he will be doing, you could just shoot him.

What if...
you had a friend who had a highly contagious virus. This virus makes one lose one's ability to reason and a side effects is that the victim will be perpetually happy. It is known as the Happy-Slave Virus (HSV). It is passed on through sexual contact and is hereditary. Your friend is going to Africa to have sex with as many people as possible. What do you do?

Clearly, I'd do exactly what I said in the post. I'd continue to befriend the guy and try to open his mind in subtle ways. He's a coworker - and as mentioned - a genuinely good person.

By the way, your analogy is flawed. In your story, this kid would also have to be completely unaware that he has this contagious virus himself, or that he's going to give it to other people. He would also have to be convinced, instead, that he's actually curing people of a contagious virus not giving it to them.

I don't think that matters. Aware or unaware, he believes he is doing good by spreading happiness.
He has experienced that his previous sexual partners are happier after being with him and wants everyone to feel that joy.
I argue therefore that he is not "a genuinely good person" (perhaps the virus is just making him (and observers) think that he is?) because he is intent on spreading this disease.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-07-2012, 09:18 PM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
Heart That little boy is so cute! Heart
_____________________________________

The sad thing is... a lot of the time, these "missionaries" are so freaking naive, some actually think that this ministering will suddenly pull these unfortunates up by the bootstraps and get them to work on their problems enough to turn their lives around and through the grace of God, become prosperous... paraphrasing their words, not mine...

Some years ago, a guy where I worked was going off to some remote village in a South American country to do "missionary work". I inquired about it and found he had no clue about where he was going, what these people might need, whether they were educated or not, if they had houses or even water. He didn't even know if they spoke english, and I know he didn't speak spanish!

At least the Peace Corp would try to help people do stuff for themselves. These missionaries are just a waste of time, money, and possibly good potential. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like kim's post
29-07-2012, 06:50 PM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
(28-07-2012 09:18 PM)kim Wrote:  Heart That little boy is so cute! Heart
_____________________________________

The sad thing is... a lot of the time, these "missionaries" are so freaking naive, some actually think that this ministering will suddenly pull these unfortunates up by the bootstraps and get them to work on their problems enough to turn their lives around and through the grace of God, become prosperous... paraphrasing their words, not mine...

Some years ago, a guy where I worked was going off to some remote village in a South American country to do "missionary work". I inquired about it and found he had no clue about where he was going, what these people might need, whether they were educated or not, if they had houses or even water. He didn't even know if they spoke english, and I know he didn't speak spanish!

At least the Peace Corp would try to help people do stuff for themselves. These missionaries are just a waste of time, money, and possibly good potential. Shy

I think that you hit the nail on the head multiple times. They do believe that talking about Jesus will magically make these people do better and/or have better lives and they are most definitely a waste of good potential.

This kid I referenced is a genuinely good person with a big heart. He's just had the misfortune of being heavily indoctrinated from a young age. He literally can't even grasp that there might be another, better alternative for helping less fortunate people in this world.

Join the Logic Speaks Community

I am the unconverted
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-07-2012, 09:55 PM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
I think I'm having a problem with the term "genuinely good". If you mean "genuinely well-intentioned", well, ok.

I think it will not be possible for your friend to hear (he may listen to you but with not understand) that his actions may bring harm and at very best have neutral-effect.

I think I would try to turn his focus to the practical good he can do (rather than the ethereal) and get him to promise to think about the potential outcomes of his actions each day and the value he is creating in their lives.

To create value he must think of two things: Utility (fit for purpose) and Warranty (fit for use).
For Utility... Is what he is going to do today something that will:
a) enhance performance or
b) remove constraints
to achieve his victims', sorry, customers' desired outcomes.
NOTE: Not his own desired outcomes.
For Warranty... Is what he going to do that day something that will improve their lives in terms of availability, capacity, continuity and security of e.g. health care, clean water, safe food etc.)

E.g. Desired outcome = safe drinking water.
Utility: Remove the constraint of having to walk 50km to the nearest store / river by digging a well.
Warranty: Ensure that the water can be tested/treated to remove impurities; has a steady flow without removing water that is needed downstream for other peoples; can be stored, cleanly; is continually safe to drink. And that no bandit can set themselves up as a WaterLord monopoly and extort everyone else.

If, after his stint there, you can report that he has achieved MEASURABLE benefits then I will be the first to applaud him as "genuinely good".

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2012, 09:53 AM
RE: Skipping the humanitarianism and jumping right into the proselytizing
(29-07-2012 09:55 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I think I'm having a problem with the term "genuinely good". If you mean "genuinely well-intentioned", well, ok.

I think it will not be possible for your friend to hear (he may listen to you but with not understand) that his actions may bring harm and at very best have neutral-effect.

I think I would try to turn his focus to the practical good he can do (rather than the ethereal) and get him to promise to think about the potential outcomes of his actions each day and the value he is creating in their lives.

To create value he must think of two things: Utility (fit for purpose) and Warranty (fit for use).
For Utility... Is what he is going to do today something that will:
a) enhance performance or
b) remove constraints
to achieve his victims', sorry, customers' desired outcomes.
NOTE: Not his own desired outcomes.
For Warranty... Is what he going to do that day something that will improve their lives in terms of availability, capacity, continuity and security of e.g. health care, clean water, safe food etc.)

E.g. Desired outcome = safe drinking water.
Utility: Remove the constraint of having to walk 50km to the nearest store / river by digging a well.
Warranty: Ensure that the water can be tested/treated to remove impurities; has a steady flow without removing water that is needed downstream for other peoples; can be stored, cleanly; is continually safe to drink. And that no bandit can set themselves up as a WaterLord monopoly and extort everyone else.

If, after his stint there, you can report that he has achieved MEASURABLE benefits then I will be the first to applaud him as "genuinely good".

You're a) overthinking things b) not accounting for full context

He's a geniunely good person because he a) does altruistic things for folks here at my office without expecting anything in return b) seems to intensely honest - e.g. not deceitful c) he does all sorts of genuine volunteer work helping homeless folks, etc. locally

This particular trip is providing no real "good" but he behaves in a generally "good" way often (actually, most of the time).

Join the Logic Speaks Community

I am the unconverted
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: