Slavery Debate with Pastor
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
24-09-2016, 04:48 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Unfogged,

Of course Faith is the important part. Is that not what I said? Effectual Faith; real faith, isn't speaking of a thing as if one believes in the face of others, but living this truth wholly in solitude, amongst the masses, during hardship, and throughout joy, regardless of self or reward or sacrifice.

You said all will be judged by faith and then go on to use scripture to verify this. Good job, but that misses the issue nearly completely. Scripture is for the faithful of some extent. All who claim to be faithful will be judged by their works which reflect if their faith is authentic or lip service, yet those deprived of faith for whatever reason will too be judged by their works though these works are not necessarily a by product of faith in the same sense. Actually in this case those who are bereft of any knowledge of GOD, yet are naturally inclined towards goodwill, compassion, and giving would naturally be at a better position for judgement then those who proudly profess the name of their Lord to the masses for the sight of man, yet privately detest those holy qualities.

Again I agree that faith is the important thing, yet the substance of faith isn't limited to what the traditions of man would have you think.

And faith being of importance wasn't the initial quibble; it was that all would be judged by faith alone, which is false as you showed by not being able to back your statement with scripture. I do commend your effort though, really.

What you believe is up to you. I don't speak of what my God wants. I speak of what is right and true pertaining to life and equitable existence as a whole.

You act like I speak of of strange fantasies, yet you grasp them so easily....strange

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-09-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Whatever helps you sleep at night Popsicle Smile

You've been blown out the water so many times. When you challenged for scriptures you were given them. When you said incorrect things you were corrected. And yet still you seem to think that one more post essentially saying "I'm an idiot who has zero reading comprehension and a bad case of cognitive dissonance" is going to magically fix everything and we'll admit that what you say is right.

It sure does take faith to be a believer Dodgy

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like morondog's post
24-09-2016, 05:50 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(24-09-2016 03:46 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It could be understood as a result of evolution, sure. Yet evolution of life is a part of existence which, of course, is of, or was formed by GOD.

So you claim. Provide a single shred of evidence for this god of yours. Oh, you have none? Then stop stating it as fact.

Quote:Why do you try to keep evolution and formation separate? As if evolution formed itself. That's for a different time. My point is that the conscience is a natural state. The selfless conscience may be as well as we can see altruism in nature. You can say these states of being evolved from other states, but you cannot justifiably claim that those initial states, whatever they may have been, were self forming.

Except that we can see how evolution works, how social species evolve, and understand how all these things could have come about without needing any sort of supernatural intervention. Clowns like you keep trying to say that a god is required but you offer nothing to support it except a wailing cry of not seeing how else it could happen. It's not my fault that you don't open your eyes or your brain and learn anything by reading books other than your precious "core scriptures". If you want to remain at the level of the uneducated, barbaric tribesmen that wrote that garbage that is your prerogative. Don't try to pass it off as anything noble because it's disgusting to see people mire themselves in ancient superstition and try to act like it is somehow noble.

Quote:So the Holy Spirit, that different spirit from self and greed, may very well be a dormant yet native state of being for all. And this natural form that is veiled and hidden by societal norms and greed is, like all existence whatsoever, of GOD.

Purely speculative bullshit.

Quote:you say it may have evolved, but I contend that it is the Spirit of life that is in all, and has been since existence started. No, stop asking, I can't prove it, it is technically hypothetical. But honestly, I have found absolutely no holes in said hypothetical as of yet. I'm still looking.

"technically hypothetical"? These adjectives that you keep putting on words to weasel out of saying anything would be amusing if it wasn't so fucking pathetic. You have found no holes because you don't have a clue what you are talking about and you only examine it from the perspective of what you already believe to be true. You're a fool at best.

(24-09-2016 04:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Of course Faith is the important part. Is that not what I said? Effectual Faith; real faith, isn't speaking of a thing as if one believes in the face of others, but living this truth wholly in solitude, amongst the masses, during hardship, and throughout joy, regardless of self or reward or sacrifice.

The way you twist and turn when cornered is amazing. "Effectual faith"? Faith is believing in something despite having no evidence for it. That can't be "effectual" because it has no substance. It is a dream. None of that has anything to do with with the point which you seem to have lost. Your "core scripture" is not self-consistent and can be interpreted in different ways which is why we have thousands of denominations that all disagree on major points of doctrine like faith vs works. Your interpretation is no more valid than anybody else's. You sound no different than any other preacher and you have nothing at all to back up your beliefs.

Quote:You said all will be judged by faith and then go on to use scripture to verify this.

I said nothing of the kind you tool and I find it beyond insulting for anybody to say that I claimed we would be judged by faith. You had said that according to scripture people are judged by acts and I said that you were ignoring the parts that said judgement was by faith. I don't believe in any sort of supernatural judgement, I was just pointing out an example of your cherry-picking what you believe from the bible.

Quote:Good job, but that misses the issue nearly completely.

The only one missing the issue here is you.

Quote: Scripture is for the faithful of some extent.

Not for the faithful of a little more extent? How about those that are really extended? How big an extent do they need to have?

Quote:All who claim to be faithful will be judged by their works which reflect if their faith is authentic or lip service, yet those deprived of faith for whatever reason will too be judged by their works though these works are not necessarily a by product of faith in the same sense.

Talk about missing the point. That is YOUR BELIEF and it is based on... nothing but your belief. There are bits in the bible that support that and bits that contradict it. There is no reason to accept any interpretation of the bible except "here's a book written by early people who didn't have any solid understanding of biology, geology, cosmology, or any other science". It is not a good guide to anything except maybe the study of primitive societies. That people live their lives today by it and study it as a guide to life and morality is frightening.

Quote:Actually in this case those who are bereft of any knowledge of GOD, yet are naturally inclined towards goodwill, compassion, and giving would naturally be at a better position for judgement then those who proudly profess the name of their Lord to the masses for the sight of man, yet privately detest those holy qualities.

Again I agree that faith is the important thing, yet the substance of faith isn't limited to what the traditions of man would have you think.

All pointless babble.... the number of fucks I give about what you think your god is, or does, or means is fixed solidly at zero. Continuing to prattle on about it is worthless until you can provide EVIDENCE to back up any of your claims.

Quote:And faith being of importance wasn't the initial quibble; it was that all would be judged by faith alone, which is false as you showed by not being able to back your statement with scripture. I do commend your effort though, really.

That was NOT the "initial quibble". I did not claim that "all would be judged by faith alone", nor did I attempt to back that claim up. I only claimed that you were ignoring parts of the bible that say people will be judged by faith alone and the verses I quoted were among those that support that. Don't act like I failed at what I attempted to show because you just look foolish. I said you cherry-pick and I think that has been demonstrated.

Quote:What you believe is up to you. I don't speak of what my God wants. I speak of what is right and true pertaining to life and equitable existence as a whole.

Under your interpretation of what you believe about this god that you have apparently dreamed up.

Quote:You act like I speak of of strange fantasies, yet you grasp them so easily....strange

I don't see being able to understand a fantasy as strange at all. I enjoy most science fiction and even some fantasy novels. Fantasy is a way to exercise the imagination and that can be very valuable. The difference is that I keep fantasy and reality separate. A fantasy can be compelling and desirable but I don't make the mistake that thinking it must be true because I'd like it to be true.

That's a big part of why I think you need professional help. You don't seem to be able to make the distinction between fantasy and reality. Your comments earlier about not finding holes in your "hypothesis" fall into this area -- a self-consistent fantasy is still a fantasy. Consistency is not enough to make it true; it must be demonstrable in the real world to even begin to be considered.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like unfogged's post
24-09-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(24-09-2016 05:50 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I don't see being able to understand a fantasy as strange at all. I enjoy most science fiction and even some fantasy novels. Fantasy is a way to exercise the imagination and that can be very valuable. The difference is that I keep fantasy and reality separate. A fantasy can be compelling and desirable but I don't make the mistake that thinking it must be true because I'd like it to be true.

[Image: unpossible_fullpic_artwork.jpg]

If only. I want a mountable giant flying dragon dammit! Big Grin

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
24-09-2016, 09:55 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Impulse,

I think it is a matter of doing what is right because it is the right thing to do, not for reward.

Conversely, we do the wrong thing because of greed, indeed generally not even contemplating what negative effects it may have. Surely people kill, rape, steal, and hurt because of some form of greed and personal attainment or reward.

Indeed it is a case of doing that other thing (holy), as opposed to being bound to what one desires in respect to attainment.

On your point;

One is accountable for only what is obvious and clear to them.

This doesn't excuse self manipulation due to greed, fear, or pride however. Most certainly all are only responsible for themselves, except for that one who knowingly steers others astray. Again, knowing is synonymous with self deceiving in this particular case.

All these things are known personally and with a surety if one only strive to use the conscience within all contexts of personal thought what so ever. That is not to say in any way that ANY here do not use their conscience to some level already.

Peace, sorry for the delay in getting back with you.

I'm sorry if it sounds haughty, or like word salad or whatever. These things are difficult to explain at this time.



Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-09-2016, 10:02 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(24-09-2016 04:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  Whatever helps you sleep at night Popsicle Smile

You've been blown out the water so many times. When you challenged for scriptures you were given them. When you said incorrect things you were corrected. And yet still you seem to think that one more post essentially saying "I'm an idiot who has zero reading comprehension and a bad case of cognitive dissonance" is going to magically fix everything and we'll admit that what you say is right.

It sure does take faith to be a believer Dodgy
Don't worry friend; none have to admit a single thing to me whatsoever.

Secondly; contrary to what you might think, and my own attempts to avoid the wants of self; I am quite involved in my own direction at this time.

Lastly; you assume I perceive the mass here to be in some horrid eternal danger. Frankly that isn't the case, as I have stated numerous times. Not that I'm blaming you for missing it; I know I'm hard to follow for multiple reasons.

Anyway...
Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-09-2016, 10:26 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(24-09-2016 05:50 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(24-09-2016 03:46 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It could be understood as a result of evolution, sure. Yet evolution of life is a part of existence which, of course, is of, or was formed by GOD.

So you claim. Provide a single shred of evidence for this god of yours. Oh, you have none? Then stop stating it as fact.

Quote:Why do you try to keep evolution and formation separate? As if evolution formed itself. That's for a different time. My point is that the conscience is a natural state. The selfless conscience may be as well as we can see altruism in nature. You can say these states of being evolved from other states, but you cannot justifiably claim that those initial states, whatever they may have been, were self forming.

Except that we can see how evolution works, how social species evolve, and understand how all these things could have come about without needing any sort of supernatural intervention. Clowns like you keep trying to say that a god is required but you offer nothing to support it except a wailing cry of not seeing how else it could happen. It's not my fault that you don't open your eyes or your brain and learn anything by reading books other than your precious "core scriptures". If you want to remain at the level of the uneducated, barbaric tribesmen that wrote that garbage that is your prerogative. Don't try to pass it off as anything noble because it's disgusting to see people mire themselves in ancient superstition and try to act like it is somehow noble.

Quote:So the Holy Spirit, that different spirit from self and greed, may very well be a dormant yet native state of being for all. And this natural form that is veiled and hidden by societal norms and greed is, like all existence whatsoever, of GOD.

Purely speculative bullshit.

Quote:you say it may have evolved, but I contend that it is the Spirit of life that is in all, and has been since existence started. No, stop asking, I can't prove it, it is technically hypothetical. But honestly, I have found absolutely no holes in said hypothetical as of yet. I'm still looking.
Show me that my claims will not produce what I believe they will produce. Then you will have an argument.

Show me how my personal interpretation is no more sound and logical and true than those thousands of others.

You aren't being honest. You get slightly angered and must repeatedly state that what I say is of no more worth than explanations you have heard before because you know that it is. Do you not recall admitting to some sliver of an extent that my interpretation did make slightly more sense than others you had heard?

I'll leave it alone. You can say what you want.

Hey!

Peace
(24-09-2016 04:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Of course Faith is the important part. Is that not what I said? Effectual Faith; real faith, isn't speaking of a thing as if one believes in the face of others, but living this truth wholly in solitude, amongst the masses, during hardship, and throughout joy, regardless of self or reward or sacrifice.

The way you twist and turn when cornered is amazing. "Effectual faith"? Faith is believing in something despite having no evidence for it. That can't be "effectual" because it has no substance. It is a dream. None of that has anything to do with with the point which you seem to have lost. Your "core scripture" is not self-consistent and can be interpreted in different ways which is why we have thousands of denominations that all disagree on major points of doctrine like faith vs works. Your interpretation is no more valid than anybody else's. You sound no different than any other preacher and you have nothing at all to back up your beliefs.

Quote:You said all will be judged by faith and then go on to use scripture to verify this.

I said nothing of the kind you tool and I find it beyond insulting for anybody to say that I claimed we would be judged by faith. You had said that according to scripture people are judged by acts and I said that you were ignoring the parts that said judgement was by faith. I don't believe in any sort of supernatural judgement, I was just pointing out an example of your cherry-picking what you believe from the bible.

Quote:Good job, but that misses the issue nearly completely.

The only one missing the issue here is you.

Quote: Scripture is for the faithful of some extent.

Not for the faithful of a little more extent? How about those that are really extended? How big an extent do they need to have?

Quote:All who claim to be faithful will be judged by their works which reflect if their faith is authentic or lip service, yet those deprived of faith for whatever reason will too be judged by their works though these works are not necessarily a by product of faith in the same sense.

Talk about missing the point. That is YOUR BELIEF and it is based on... nothing but your belief. There are bits in the bible that support that and bits that contradict it. There is no reason to accept any interpretation of the bible except "here's a book written by early people who didn't have any solid understanding of biology, geology, cosmology, or any other science". It is not a good guide to anything except maybe the study of primitive societies. That people live their lives today by it and study it as a guide to life and morality is frightening.

Quote:Actually in this case those who are bereft of any knowledge of GOD, yet are naturally inclined towards goodwill, compassion, and giving would naturally be at a better position for judgement then those who proudly profess the name of their Lord to the masses for the sight of man, yet privately detest those holy qualities.

Again I agree that faith is the important thing, yet the substance of faith isn't limited to what the traditions of man would have you think.

All pointless babble.... the number of fucks I give about what you think your god is, or does, or means is fixed solidly at zero. Continuing to prattle on about it is worthless until you can provide EVIDENCE to back up any of your claims.

Quote:And faith being of importance wasn't the initial quibble; it was that all would be judged by faith alone, which is false as you showed by not being able to back your statement with scripture. I do commend your effort though, really.

That was NOT the "initial quibble". I did not claim that "all would be judged by faith alone", nor did I attempt to back that claim up. I only claimed that you were ignoring parts of the bible that say people will be judged by faith alone and the verses I quoted were among those that support that. Don't act like I failed at what I attempted to show because you just look foolish. I said you cherry-pick and I think that has been demonstrated.

Quote:What you believe is up to you. I don't speak of what my God wants. I speak of what is right and true pertaining to life and equitable existence as a whole.

Under your interpretation of what you believe about this god that you have apparently dreamed up.

Quote:You act like I speak of of strange fantasies, yet you grasp them so easily....strange

I don't see being able to understand a fantasy as strange at all. I enjoy most science fiction and even some fantasy novels. Fantasy is a way to exercise the imagination and that can be very valuable. The difference is that I keep fantasy and reality separate. A fantasy can be compelling and desirable but I don't make the mistake that thinking it must be true because I'd like it to be true.

That's a big part of why I think you need professional help. You don't seem to be able to make the distinction between fantasy and reality. Your comments earlier about not finding holes in your "hypothesis" fall into this area -- a self-consistent fantasy is still a fantasy. Consistency is not enough to make it true; it must be demonstrable in the real world to even begin to be considered.


Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-09-2016, 06:06 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(24-09-2016 10:26 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(24-09-2016 05:50 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Purely speculative bullshit.

Show me that my claims will not produce what I believe they will produce. Then you will have an argument.

That's not how it works. You are making claims so you have the burden of proof to support them. Perhaps you missed the point that consistency is not a sufficient reason to believe something is true. Provide some evidence to back up your claims and then you will have an argument.

Quote:Show me how my personal interpretation is no more sound and logical and true than those thousands of others.

Again, you miss the point completely. You have the burden to show that your argument is sound and logical and true with the emphasis being on the 'true' part. There are plenty of internally consistent claims that are still not true. I'm interested in things that can be shown to be true, not what some nutjob on the internet claims to be true with no evidence to back it up.

Quote:You aren't being honest. You get slightly angered and must repeatedly state that what I say is of no more worth than explanations you have heard before because you know that it is.

I repeatedly state that your claims are worthless because they are. You admit that you have no way to demonstrate the truth of your claims which means they are of interest only to psychologists trying to figure out what is wrong with you.

Quote: Do you not recall admitting to some sliver of an extent that my interpretation did make slightly more sense than others you had heard?

Again, your reading comprehension is abysmal. I have said that some of your generalizations about people being decent to each other is a better philosophy than that which I hear from other delusional theists. I do NOT think that your beliefs about your god make any sense at all. I don't believe that any god is needed to come to that sort of philosophy.

Quote:I'll leave it alone. You can say what you want.

And you can go read your "core scriptures", apply your "effectual faith" and condemn slavery "to some extent".

I notice you ignored almost all the main points and haven't admitted yet that your "core scripture" can be interpreted in multiple ways so your claims of consistency are an illusion of your particular interpretation and biased reading. You also haven't identified "scripture" that isn't "core scripture".

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
25-09-2016, 06:53 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(25-09-2016 06:06 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(24-09-2016 10:26 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Show me that my claims will not produce what I believe they will produce. Then you will have an argument.

That's not how it works. You are making claims so you have the burden of proof to support them. Perhaps you missed the point that consistency is not a sufficient reason to believe something is true. Provide some evidence to back up your claims and then you will have an argument.

Quote:Show me how my personal interpretation is no more sound and logical and true than those thousands of others.

Again, you miss the point completely. You have the burden to show that your argument is sound and logical and true with the emphasis being on the 'true' part. There are plenty of internally consistent claims that are still not true. I'm interested in things that can be shown to be true, not what some nutjob on the internet claims to be true with no evidence to back it up.

Quote:You aren't being honest. You get slightly angered and must repeatedly state that what I say is of no more worth than explanations you have heard before because you know that it is.

I repeatedly state that your claims are worthless because they are. You admit that you have no way to demonstrate the truth of your claims which means they are of interest only to psychologists trying to figure out what is wrong with you.

Quote: Do you not recall admitting to some sliver of an extent that my interpretation did make slightly more sense than others you had heard?

Again, your reading comprehension is abysmal. I have said that some of your generalizations about people being decent to each other is a better philosophy than that which I hear from other delusional theists. I do NOT think that your beliefs about your god make any sense at all. I don't believe that any god is needed to come to that sort of philosophy.

Quote:I'll leave it alone. You can say what you want.

And you can go read your "core scriptures", apply your "effectual faith" and condemn slavery "to some extent".

I notice you ignored almost all the main points and haven't admitted yet that your "core scripture" can be interpreted in multiple ways so your claims of consistency are an illusion of your particular interpretation and biased reading. You also haven't identified "scripture" that isn't "core scripture".
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Your opinion of me is irrelevant.

You seem to think physical evidence of your liking is the only form of truth. I never said I couldn't show my perspective to be true, I show it to be true daily. What I can't show you is the proof you need. I'm not certain you would be convinced by the words of any, so what other special type of truth do you require? I can rattle off pages of things that lend credence to the truth value of my claims, but it would make no difference to you, as you have made your opinion of me and will not be changing it no matter what I'm afraid.

Good thing what you think of me has little to nothing to do with anything.

Anyway, you are boring me again.

Maybe we'll continue one day when you aren't so wrapped up in your own preconceptions all while claiming it is others who are lost.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-09-2016, 07:30 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(25-09-2016 06:53 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  You seem to think physical evidence of your liking is the only form of truth.

"My liking" is a red herring. We can start any evidence at all but you've already admitted that you have none. The quality of the evidence can be argued once it is presented but we aren't at that stage yet because you are just making wild claims with no connection to reality.

Quote:I never said I couldn't show my perspective to be true, I show it to be true daily. What I can't show you is the proof you need.

That's just nonsense. Nobody gives a fuck about your "perspective". What matters is if you can demonstrate that your claims about a god are true. Nothing you do shows that or can show that. You claim a reason for your behavior and your beliefs and yet you can't show that that reason actually exists except in your mind.

Quote:I'm not certain you would be convinced by the words of any, so what other special type of truth do you require? I can rattle off pages of things that lend credence to the truth value of my claims, but it would make no difference to you, as you have made your opinion of me and will not be changing it no matter what I'm afraid.

I believe things for which there is demonstrable, testable evidence. Nothing you rattle off lends ANY credence to your claims; it only shows that some others may have held similar beliefs. People believe all sorts of ridiculous things and popularity is not evidence of truth.

You keep making this personal -- what I think of you personally is distinct from what I think of your claims. There are people I like who make claims I dismiss and people I dislike who make claims I accept. What matters is the content of the evidence for the claim. Even a nutcase like you could be right about something but that decision rests on the evidence for the claim. You offer nothing to support your claims.

Quote:Good thing what you think of me has little to nothing to do with anything.

Anyway, you are boring me again.

Typical. Try answering the questions. Give me an example of scripture that is not "core" and explain why. Explain why the many gospels, acts, and apocalypse books written contemporaneously with the now-canonical books aren't "core" when many early christians thought they were. Explain why the "core" scripture of the bible contradicts itself on whether works are required or not. Provide ANY evidence that your god exists and that we should take these writings seriously in the first place.

Quote:Maybe we'll continue one day when you aren't so wrapped up in your own preconceptions all while claiming it is others who are lost.

If that doesn't blow people's irony meters then they need to get them checked. You're so deep in your delusions that you have no concept of how to distinguish fantasy from reality. I really feel sorry for you. You need professional help.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like unfogged's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: