Slavery Debate with Pastor
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27-09-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(26-09-2016 08:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  You say that experience and trials and the conscience would lead all to different opinions of morality, but I have explained it before; if you remove the idea of benefit of self from moral equations then they become no longer subjective, but objective.
You think this is a poor way for GOD to show us our direction, but it is direct personal and as such irrefutable.
But no one does this. All people don't necessarily think primarily of themselves, but throughout each person's experience, surely "benefit of self" factors in often; with some people pretty much always. And this is certainly not direct at all. Direct would be God communicating clearly in any form exactly what is expected of us. Being omnipotent, there are countless ways he could accomplish this without making us do anything - consciously or unconsciously. We would simply understand. We would not then be robots either (as you said further down). We would be free to choose our actions within the range of our abilities while knowing whether God approves or not.

(26-09-2016 08:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It really isn't a decision that is made in regards to knowing what is right or wrong. How do you know what is right or wrong? With your conscience right? Now imagine removing consequences and rewards for self from these same moral decisions; upon doing this you will understand that it indeed removes the subjective aspects. These same moral truths that can be reached while one is being consciously introspective and selfless can also be identified with great ease when reading things supposing to be moral in nature. I will happily go into more detail, just try and explain where I'm loosing you.
Removing self doesn't make things crystal clear. For example, do you let someone live while they suffer greatly (life = good; suffering = bad) or do you remove medical support so they die and stop suffering (death = bad; no suffering = good)? There is no self in either decision, but what is "morally right" is far from clear.

(26-09-2016 08:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The type of GOD that would allow it's creation to be free as opposed to slaves to its will even if it was wholly for their sake, is a benevolent God with omnipotence and omniscience, that too would have known that though many, being free night veer away from the right direction, that very freedom and experience/history may be the only just way to guide them and allow their freedom to choose their own will based on their own motives.

Why would a benevolent GOD command all to be like soulless robots only mindlessly varying out orders?
I answered this in part above. But also consider this. Since you believe we were created by God, then you also believe he has already limited our free will in many ways. We cannot fly. We cannot jump 100 yards high. We cannot snap our fingers and pop over to the next planet. We cannot swim under water without assistive devices for more than a couple of minutes at the most. If God also confined us to only being able to do moral actions, how would this be any worse than other limitations we already have? In fact, wouldn't it be better not to worry about someone killing, stealing from, raping, or otherwise immorally harming you or others? Consider

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27-09-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(27-09-2016 01:27 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-09-2016 08:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  You say that experience and trials and the conscience would lead all to different opinions of morality, but I have explained it before; if you remove the idea of benefit of self from moral equations then they become no longer subjective, but objective.
You think this is a poor way for GOD to show us our direction, but it is direct personal and as such irrefutable.
But no one does this. All people don't necessarily think primarily of themselves, but throughout each person's experience, surely "benefit of self" factors in often; with some people pretty much always. And this is certainly not direct at all. Direct would be God communicating clearly in any form exactly what is expected of us. Being omnipotent, there are countless ways he could accomplish this without making us do anything - consciously or unconsciously. We would simply understand. We would not then be robots either (as you said further down). We would be free to choose our actions within the range of our abilities while knowing whether God approves or not.

(26-09-2016 08:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It really isn't a decision that is made in regards to knowing what is right or wrong. How do you know what is right or wrong? With your conscience right? Now imagine removing consequences and rewards for self from these same moral decisions; upon doing this you will understand that it indeed removes the subjective aspects. These same moral truths that can be reached while one is being consciously introspective and selfless can also be identified with great ease when reading things supposing to be moral in nature. I will happily go into more detail, just try and explain where I'm loosing you.
Removing self doesn't make things crystal clear. For example, do you let someone live while they suffer greatly (life = good; suffering = bad) or do you remove medical support so they die and stop suffering (death = bad; no suffering = good)? There is no self in either decision, but what is "morally right" is far from clear.

(26-09-2016 08:45 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The type of GOD that would allow it's creation to be free as opposed to slaves to its will even if it was wholly for their sake, is a benevolent God with omnipotence and omniscience, that too would have known that though many, being free night veer away from the right direction, that very freedom and experience/history may be the only just way to guide them and allow their freedom to choose their own will based on their own motives.

Why would a benevolent GOD command all to be like soulless robots only mindlessly varying out orders?
I answered this in part above. But also consider this. Since you believe we were created by God, then you also believe he has already limited our free will in many ways. We cannot fly. We cannot jump 100 yards high. We cannot snap our fingers and pop over to the next planet. We cannot swim under water without assistive devices for more than a couple of minutes at the most. If God also confined us to only being able to do moral actions, how would this be any worse than other limitations we already have? In fact, wouldn't it be better not to worry about someone killing, stealing from, raping, or otherwise immorally harming you or others? Consider
Great post.

Still working, but I will try and answer your points later tonight. I actually cracked a smile when done reading it.

Bravo

Peace

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27-09-2016, 03:06 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(27-09-2016 10:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(27-09-2016 06:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  You said that those particular scriptures were rightly guided. I asked you how you knew. You said that it said so in scripture. You made a statement that these people/books *were* rightly guided.

Popsicle: The following are rightly guided: X, Y, Z books of the bible.
Dog: How do you know?
Popsicle: It says so in the Bible.
Dog: That's circular.
Popsicle: No, I just said that it said so in the Bible.

Other books like Genesis and Exodus which inconveniently for you mention lots of killing, are also part of the Bible. Universally acknowledged as important books. Yet you've tried to claim that all the nasty bits are due to human error. HOW DO YOU TELL? Do you have a magic ability to decide which scriptures are of God and which are human error?
Wow, what scripture did I say was wholly rightly guided? None.

And the question pertained to what men had been rightly guided.

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You've still utterly failed to explain how you deduced that those particular men were rightly guided, except to reference scripture, which you are now claiming is unreliable.

Keep trying. I'd laugh if it wasn't so goddamn pathetic.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-09-2016, 06:39 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(27-09-2016 03:06 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-09-2016 10:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Wow, what scripture did I say was wholly rightly guided? None.

And the question pertained to what men had been rightly guided.

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You've still utterly failed to explain how you deduced that those particular men were rightly guided, except to reference scripture, which you are now claiming is unreliable.

Keep trying. I'd laugh if it wasn't so goddamn pathetic.
I didn't say scripture was unreliable.



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27-09-2016, 11:14 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(27-09-2016 10:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Wow, what scripture did I say was wholly rightly guided? None.

(27-09-2016 06:39 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I didn't say scripture was unreliable.

Any other impossible things you'd like to believe before breakfast?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-09-2016, 04:25 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
The stupid is burning through my retinas.

There are no words for such embarrassing levels of denial, irony and hypocrisy.
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28-09-2016, 04:42 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Impulse,

You say directly would be GOD communicating clearly in any form. What do you think I'm talking about? The conscience is direct and personal and irrefutable. It shouldn't be looked at from a reward/ punishment perspective. People should do what is right because it is the right thing to do, not out of fear or expectation.

You say GOD could do this in countless ways in which we wouldn't have to do anything... We would simply understand. I'm quite certain even an infant, not succumbing to the greed and the societal norms that negate the conscience, would understand that they know what is right, regardless of where they think that direction comes from, and they don't have to do anything in order to understand it. You say we would be free to choose our actions and not be robots.

Well that sounds to me like you just described exactly what I've been trying to explain.

In terms of life support of another; one faced with such a decision would most likely have been near to the one on life support. And it may not become absolutely crystal clear with the removal of self from the equation, but nearly. Life is a good thing but what sort of life is that of a vegetative state? Is this individual brain dead (not exactly life). Are they in some way conscious? Are they actually suffering?

Most would no doubt consider their own burdens in making such a choice, like; if I keep them on support I will have to visit them and tend to them, or what expenses and sacrifices must I make in order to keep this person "alive"?

It was a good example, but still, the same criteria would work.

You speak of physical limitations as if they are imprisonments of the freedom of will. This simply isn't the case as through our intellect that was in some way allowed by GOD we have the capacities to fly, swim, travel in space, or whatever. These freedoms do not elude us, nor are our capacities unable to realize them in some form. It just isn't the same as having the freedom of thought being removed from our capacities. Indeed if these capacities of thought where taken away or never given then we surely wouldn't be as far as we are today technologically. Make no mistake; what you are hinting at is a form of slavery. I am thankful that we aren't forced to abide or even listen.

One need not worry about the things you listed if they are in the right mind set. This life is but a blink of an eye. Living by what one knows is right also causes one not to worry about things like you listed. Not that these things won't happen, just that they wouldn't be worried about by those whom have relinquished want for self.

Lastly; if literally all where in tune to and abided by the selfless conscience then there would be no rape, murder, or theft.

Sorry for the delay in getting back with you. I was exhausted last night, and your retorts require nearly my utmost attention.

Again; congratulations on your post. I look forward to the next one.

Peace


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28-09-2016, 04:44 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(27-09-2016 11:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-09-2016 10:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Wow, what scripture did I say was wholly rightly guided? None.

(27-09-2016 06:39 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I didn't say scripture was unreliable.

Any other impossible things you'd like to believe before breakfast?
There is a difference in noting that a thing isn't wholly one way or another, and claiming a thing is wholly unreliable.

Hope you haven't eaten yet.

Peace

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28-09-2016, 05:01 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(28-09-2016 04:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The conscience is direct and personal and irrefutable. It shouldn't be looked at from a reward/ punishment perspective. People should do what is right because it is the right thing to do, not out of fear or expectation.

What is in people's "conscience" is learned. It's not from any of the gods, pops.
Unless you're saying you hear voices.
Facepalm

Get help

Soon

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-09-2016, 05:03 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
How do you know those men were rightly guided? You stated it so confidently. And yet your attempted answers have all been so shit, I can't understand how even you can believe them.

You've managed to directly contradict yourself within the space of two posts. Now you're attempting to save face by playing word games.

What the fuck does it even mean to say that someone was "rightly guided"? God whispered in their ear? And you magically know to whom God talks? Or maybe God whispers in *your* ear?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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