Slavery Debate with Pastor
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16-09-2016, 05:48 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(16-09-2016 02:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(15-09-2016 01:33 PM)bigjay Wrote:  The bible calls it slavery, but what else might you call an institution designed to provide shelter and work to people who have lost everything through misfortune or war or stupidity, with term limits (if you're Jewish), wage equivalencies (for all), and equal protection under the law, people who today would be placed in concentration camps and refugee camps and prisons, or under the overpasses in Nashville?

Facepalm So... *involuntary* servitude, possibly including sexual slavery, is ancient world socialism. This pastor dude of yours is a special kind of special.

I just read the post from this pastor again and...fuck me (well, maybe literally) but i think i wanna become a slave now. This must have been heaven on earth.Drooling
Do i get free coffee too?

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16-09-2016, 06:16 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Quote:The bible calls it slavery, but what else might you call an institution designed to provide shelter and work to people who have lost everything through misfortune or war or stupidity, with term limits (if you're Jewish), wage equivalencies (for all), and equal protection under the law, people who today would be placed in concentration camps and refugee camps and prisons, or under the overpasses in Nashville?

Let me paraphrase this statement (only slightly):

The bible calls it slavery, but what else might you call an institution designed to provide shelter and work to people from Africa who have lost everything through misfortune or war or stupidity, with term limits (if you could buy your freedom), food and shelter (for all), and equal protection under the law which treats them as the property of slave owners?

Still sounds like slavery to me.

Your pastor sounds like the worst kind of apologist, one who will dishonestly wriggle and evade and try to proffer a false equivalence.

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16-09-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Closing remarks and then my reply (I guess I didn't give him the last word after all.) And just wait till you see his last sentence!



J,
I appreciate you giving me the last word. I do not need to forgive anything. I believe strongly that if the bible is followed, the immoral, barbaric enslavement of people all around the world will cease. Apparently, I have come across as defending the opposite: your outrage is justified, if for no other reason that I am a poor defender of the faith I claim.
 
When I get the chance to make a difference in someone’s life because they’ve suffered the abuse and shame of being enslaved, I do so because of I believe the Bible teaches me to love my fellow man and use my station in life to the advantage of the poor, the widow, the slave and the orphan.
I have no doubt you do the same; the fire in your words lets me know this isn’t merely an intellectual exercise.
 
I was glad to see you reach out again. You said you were too disappointed in me this time around to reach out again. That’s a shame. I hope you’ll change your mind. I hold my ideas strongly, but not always clearly. The exchange of ideas among people who are often diametrically opposed makes us all better people. Too many people are walking around with too many unexamined assumptions and foolish notions. I know you have your mind made up about Christianity, but I hope you won’t continue to judge its quality based on my particular defense of it.
 
Anyways, I’m sorry you have such a contempt for my beliefs and can’t wait to see the day when they are gone from the earth. My prayer for you will remain that you come to see how slavery to the Lord is the only freedom worth having.
 
Sincerely,
Tom


++++++++++++++

Tom,

"slavery to the Lord is the only freedom worth having"??? Oh holy shit, Tom, you GOTTA put that on a t-shirt and sell it. It will not have the effect on some of your fellow theists that you'd like for it to I bet! Something about the word slavery will not sit well with some of them.


Anyway, kudos for not ripping me a new asshole, which is what I expected.

I not only have my mind made up about Christianity, but about all other religions, as I suspect you have as well. But I have no problem saying that I may be wrong, I only wish more theists would say that.

And who knows, it may be that there was/is a supreme creator who set all this in motion and then walked away, never to be seen again. Or perhaps he does sit waiting to judge us, and he accepts all but the most vile into a celestial paradise. And perhaps he shakes his head with a bemused look at those who believed in one of the thousands of religions, but lets them in anyway because they were mostly good. 

That god might also smile at the atheist, for we are the only ones who got it right and were unconvinced because he himself agrees that he gave us no reason to think he exists and our minds were true and intellectually honest in our search for answers, and we came up with atheism as the only reasonable belief given the evidence.

But I don’t think any of that is very likely. I just have to throw that in the hat to remind the theists that they can’t all be right, but they can all be wrong.

I’m not leaving our discussions because I’m disappointed, I’m leaving because I’ve asked the two main questions I had, and I wondered if a clergy member would have different or better defenses of the religion than I’d gotten so far from the layman Christian. I now have my answer to that question.

Also, while I do enjoy a discussion, I don’t enjoy at all how pissed off I get. 

A final thought that I didn’t get around to, fathers can sell their daughters into slavery, and those daughters do not go free after 7 years. I don’t see any room for interpretation in those verses. And you needn’t answer, I just wanted to mention it because I forgot to earlier.

As for your prayer about me, I will tell you as I tell my family. Don’t pray for ME to do something, been there, done that, got baptized, read the bible more than most believers have, got the t-shirt, so I figure I’ve done my part. Instead, you should pray for your god to show himself to me. If he wants to see me you can tell him that I’m easily found.

Thanks for the discussion.

J

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16-09-2016, 04:09 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
I call bullshit on him praying for you. I'd bet money that he doesn't, because subconciously he realizes it's pointless.
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16-09-2016, 10:42 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
I just had to do this.

(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  I believe strongly that if the bible is followed, the immoral, barbaric enslavement of people all around the world will cease.

You believe in it so strongly that the only defense you have done is either dodge, misrepresent, or ignore the text.

(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  Apparently, I have come across as defending the opposite: your outrage is justified, if for no other reason that I am a poor defender of the faith I claim.

Which is the position that all people who defend the indefensible find themselves.
 
(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  When I get the chance to make a difference in someone’s life because they’ve suffered the abuse and shame of being enslaved, I do so because of I believe the Bible teaches me to love my fellow man and use my station in life to the advantage of the poor, the widow, the slave and the orphan.

However, Jesus said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This is a completely backwards way of thinking. What if that person does NOT want to be treated as you want to be treated? This is a completely selfish and narcissistic way of looking at it when you should treat others as THEY want to be treated.

(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  I have no doubt you do the same; the fire in your words lets me know this isn’t merely an intellectual exercise.

Translation: The Dunning-Kruger effect does not work on you like it works on my flock.
 
(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  I was glad to see you reach out again. You said you were too disappointed in me this time around to reach out again. That’s a shame. I hope you’ll change your mind. I hold my ideas strongly, but not always clearly. The exchange of ideas among people who are often diametrically opposed makes us all better people.

But yall can't be as good as me 'cause you lack Jeebus. It says so here is this here book I have. Also, if you hold strong ideas but they aren't clear, that should be a red flag they they may be misplaced.

(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  Too many people are walking around with too many unexamined assumptions and foolish notions.

Says the guy with too many unexamined assumptions and foolish notions. Delicious irony. Smartass

(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  I know you have your mind made up about Christianity, but I hope you won’t continue to judge its quality based on my particular defense of it.
 
If I see anything worth a defense, I 'll let you know.

(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  Anyways, I’m sorry you have such a contempt for my beliefs and can’t wait to see the day when they are gone from the earth.

All trash needs taken out from time to time.

(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  My prayer for you will remain that you come to see how slavery to the Lord is the only freedom worth having.
 

Translation: I think that slavery far worse than any man made bondage to a sky fairy is great but all other kinds are icky and special pleading is ok in some cases.

(16-09-2016 03:50 PM)bigjay Wrote:  Unintentionally Condescendingly,
Tom

That felt nice. I had some heat to vent....... Sleepy

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The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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17-09-2016, 01:33 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Is this Idiot really arguing that kindness generosity are expressed through slavery that's whole sale madness

Example right now my family is trying to take in 2 beautiful twins from the Congo (guess since it's one of my siblings raising them i'm going to be an aunt for the fifth time yay).According to this fools reasoning we should enslave them and work them like chattel .That doesn't sound like compassion it feels like exploitation of the helpless and desperate no wonder he still worships the Christian god .

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17-09-2016, 02:32 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
It is better to be damned forever and free to ones true self then be blessed as a gods bottom bitch

As it is good to live as ones self now and die forever then live forever and die as ones self

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17-09-2016, 06:06 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
My take away of his defense is that he wants to re-define the word slavery and at the same time, say that the bible is against it when it explicitly is not.

My main concern with all of theism is the influence and control it has over our government. If the separation of church and state was actually enforced in the US, I would be happy to leave the theists to their delusion.

I so wish I could get a glimpse of the US 1000 years from now to see if we're still here, and to see if religion has gone away or at least been marginalized. And if it turns out the US is a full on theocracy in 1000 years, well, I guess we as a species are just too dumb to progress and we deserve the nightmare that theocracy would bring.
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20-09-2016, 05:23 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

Peace

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20-09-2016, 05:57 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

So why did St Paul, operating *after* Christ, not specifically point this out, but still encourage slaves to obey their masters, while finding time to denigrate homosexuality?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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