Slavery Debate with Pastor
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20-09-2016, 06:01 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

Again... in your interpretation. Jesus had no issue with slavery and used it in his parables: "The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."

That does not match up well with your interpretation of "love thy neighbor". You are cherry-picking again. It is quite possible to follow the command to love your neighbor if you define "neighbor" as fellow free Jew and exclude slaves and non-Jews from consideration. That is a poorer philosophy but has the advantage of being consistent.

Or you could realize that these books were written by people that lived in a barbaric society and have are just their attempt at figuring things out. They are interesting as history but they have no special significance.

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20-09-2016, 06:09 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Why wasnt Jesus, a god reincarnate(!) able (or willing?) to just simply say: "Slavery sucks. Stop that shit".

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20-09-2016, 08:26 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(15-09-2016 01:11 AM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  
(13-09-2016 07:05 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Sorry, isn't this Pastor Jewish, practically speaking?

I mean, he is interested almost solely in what was addressed to the ancient Jews (the kids of humanity) though the updated teachings, provided by Jesus to the adults of humanity, supersede and go beyond all previous ones on the Old Testament.

Kerim

Jesus said nothing against slavery

paul fully supported the institution of slavery

You are right, OrdoSkeptica.

But do you know a master in the world who loves his slave as himself?
If you do, please let me hear of him. Thank you.

About Paul, he was just a man. So he had to play a role that suits the environment of his time only.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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20-09-2016, 08:39 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 06:09 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Why wasnt Jesus, a god reincarnate(!) able (or willing?) to just simply say: "Slavery sucks. Stop that shit".

Jesus says, as translated to English, even more than this: "love your neighbour as yourself".
By the way, the word "neighbour" here is translated to Arabic as "who is by you", not just a neighbour Wink I mean this applies on anyone I may meet; even if he has to play my enemy.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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20-09-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 05:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(20-09-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

So why did St Paul, operating *after* Christ, not specifically point this out, but still encourage slaves to obey their masters, while finding time to denigrate homosexuality?

St Paul was just a man who had to play a role that suits the people in his time.

Even now, all citizens in the world obey the rules imposed by their systems Tongue
I mean, just because the masters who impose these rules work behind the scenes and their slaves are now called citizens, it doesn't mean that slavery, mainly the slavery of minds (thanks to internet), doesn't exist anymore (starting from America, if I am not wrong Wink ). Fortunately, many of the today's slaves, sorry I mean citizens, are made to also believe they are free... by freely following/obeying zillion of rules; from the time they wake up in the morning, till they sleep again Big Grin

Isn't it a wonderful world Drinking Beverage

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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20-09-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(16-09-2016 10:42 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  However, Jesus said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This is a completely backwards way of thinking. What if that person does NOT want to be treated as you want to be treated? This is a completely selfish and narcissistic way of looking at it when you should treat others as THEY want to be treated.

Let us be rational.

How do you treat others?
If you tell me... the way they like to be treated.

I will ask you again:
And how do you know what they expect from you?

Your reply will likely be something as:
"I'll simply ask them".

Now, let us be back and ask:
How do you like others treating you?
I like them asking me first about what I expect from them.

Well, isn't this what Jesus says exactly... right? Consider

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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20-09-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 09:01 AM)KerimF Wrote:  
(20-09-2016 05:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  So why did St Paul, operating *after* Christ, not specifically point this out, but still encourage slaves to obey their masters, while finding time to denigrate homosexuality?

St Paul was just a man who had to play a role that suits the people in his time.

Even now, all citizens in the world obey the rules imposed by their systems Tongue
I mean, just because the masters who impose these rules work behind the scenes and their slaves are now called citizens, it doesn't mean that slavery, mainly the slavery of minds (thanks to internet), doesn't exist anymore (starting from America, if I am not wrong Wink ). Fortunately, many of the today's slaves, sorry I mean citizens, are made to also believe they are free... by freely following/obeying zillion of rules; from the time they wake up in the morning, till they sleep again Big Grin

Isn't it a wonderful world Drinking Beverage

You are saying that just because we are backward now, *God* condoning the practice of slavery is fine? "We Muslim extremists aren't so bad, after all Christian extremists blow people up too?" It's that kind of defence that is the weakest.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-09-2016, 10:14 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

Peace

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I see. So, in other words, God neglected to include "thou shalt not own slaves" in the OT commandments, but he did realize his mistake... perfect god that he is... and included 2 new commands that cover it... although he still didn't explicitly say slavery is wrong... perfect god that he is. Drinking Beverage And, of course, being the all-knowing god that he is, in OT times, he knew he would be doing this in NT times, but still left it out of the 10 commandments anyway... realized his mistake then and CHOSE to leave it out anyway. Dodgy How does this end the conversation again?

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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20-09-2016, 10:30 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(15-09-2016 02:44 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(13-09-2016 07:05 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Sorry, isn't this Pastor Jewish, practically speaking?

I mean, he is interested almost solely in what was addressed to the ancient Jews (the kids of humanity) though the updated teachings, provided by Jesus to the adults of humanity, supersede and go beyond all previous ones on the Old Testament.

Kerim

Perchance you could look up the definition of Jewish.

Oh, I forgot that many persons here fear, for some reasons, saying directly what they have in mind... like the definition of 'Jewish'.

To me in the least, a good Jew is the one who follows Moses' Law and obeys the present Jewish elders in charge of applying and supervising it.

Also a good Jew has to ignore Jesus message which is about living the divine unconditional love and care towards all others, friends and enemy.
Jesus is clear about this unconditional love; he says something like:
The sun rises on the evil and on the good, and the rain is sent on the just and on the unjust.

On the other hand, it seems you are interested in knowing how 'Jewish' means to some others only while I don't. But you are my guest to help me know how YOU define the word 'Jewish'... as I did. Thank you.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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20-09-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
Bigjay can you show us where the Bibles ays that last sentence here of yours? Thanks.

Quite the opposite, J. Every culture in the world has had slavery, and all of it morally appalling. But if every culture in the world held it to be an inviolable moral truth that kidnapping and selling human beings in order to force them to work for no pay is wrong (like the bible says several times), slavery would've ceased to exist a long time ago. My point is that while it seems (to you) to flinch on certain aspects of slavery, the bible is unequivocal that taking people against their will and selling them as a commodity is a moral abomination.
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