Slavery Debate with Pastor
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-09-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 10:14 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(20-09-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
I see. So, in other words, God neglected to include "thou shalt not own slaves" in the OT commandments, but he did realize his mistake... perfect god that he is... and included 2 new commands that cover it... although he still didn't explicitly say slavery is wrong... perfect god that he is. Drinking Beverage And, of course, being the all-knowing god that he is, in OT times, he knew he would be doing this in NT times, but still left it out of the 10 commandments anyway... realized his mistake then and CHOSE to leave it out anyway. Dodgy How does this end the conversation again?

You forgot that we, just created human beings, are doing now exactly what our Creator did since many centuries ago.

Do we teach our little kids the notion of infinity while their minds find hard counting to one thousand only?
Judaism was addressed to an ancient people (the kids of humanity). It is like we make rules for our kids to follow in order to help them have a healthy body and mind when adults. Then, they will be free to do whatever they like, including following certain rules as of their system.

Naturally, the 10 commandments (and many others perhaps) are superseded by Jesus message about living the unconditional love and care towards all others. Also Jesus message wasn't addressed to humans who are created as survival beings that are already guided by their instincts (for having a living human flesh only). But these survival humans who form the great majority on the planet are very important to the world as all other living things. Their main role is to serve, in a way or another, the progress and continuity of life on earth.

To whom (among the adults of humanity) Jesus is addressing is another story Big Grin

In brief, Judaism is still valid for those who are created to survive as long as possible and at any cost. The same applies on Islam that was created by Mohammad Al-Kuraishi as an Arabic version of Judaism. This explains the reason for which even the today's majority of Christians prefers following the OT (and/or its Arabic version) instead of Jesus message. After all, the humans who have to look for survival only should be guided by rules (said of heavenly or earthly god/fathers) that are inspired by the human instincts in order for them to play the masters/slaves game in the jungle of life.

You likely couldn't get anything clear from what I say.
So please forgive me because I had to say it just for the record Big Grin

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 11:08 AM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  Bigjay can you show us where the Bibles ays that last sentence here of yours? Thanks.

Quite the opposite, J. Every culture in the world has had slavery, and all of it morally appalling. But if every culture in the world held it to be an inviolable moral truth that kidnapping and selling human beings in order to force them to work for no pay is wrong (like the bible says several times),

Can you reference where it says that?

Quote:slavery would've ceased to exist a long time ago. My point is that while it seems (to you) to flinch on certain aspects of slavery, the bible is unequivocal that taking people against their will and selling them as a commodity is a moral abomination.

Leviticus 25: 44-46
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

It seems pretty clear to me that buying and selling people as commodities is perfectly acceptable as long as they aren't fellow Jews.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like unfogged's post
20-09-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 11:27 AM)KerimF Wrote:  You likely couldn't get anything clear from what I say.
So please forgive me because I had to say it just for the record Big Grin

I understood the words, disagree with much of it, and don't see how any of it is a response to my post or the larger discussion. Since you apparently wrote something obtuse deliberately, does that mean you were stumped?

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2016, 01:32 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 11:08 AM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  Bigjay can you show us where the Bibles ays that last sentence here of yours? Thanks.

Quite the opposite, J. Every culture in the world has had slavery, and all of it morally appalling. But if every culture in the world held it to be an inviolable moral truth that kidnapping and selling human beings in order to force them to work for no pay is wrong (like the bible says several times), slavery would've ceased to exist a long time ago. My point is that while it seems (to you) to flinch on certain aspects of slavery, the bible is unequivocal that taking people against their will and selling them as a commodity is a moral abomination.

I'm BigJay, Tom is the pastor, somewhere in the forum posts someone turned it around. So I cannot defend that sentence as I didn't write it, the pastor did.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2016, 07:46 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 05:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(20-09-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

So why did St Paul, operating *after* Christ, not specifically point this out, but still encourage slaves to obey their masters, while finding time to denigrate homosexuality?
How would I know? I never claimed Paul was perfect, and he surely didn't.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2016, 07:49 PM (This post was last modified: 20-09-2016 08:06 PM by popsthebuilder.)
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 06:01 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(20-09-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

Again... in your interpretation. Jesus had no issue with slavery and used it in his parables: "The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."

That does not match up well with your interpretation of "love thy neighbor". You are cherry-picking again. It is quite possible to follow the command to love your neighbor if you define "neighbor" as fellow free Jew and exclude slaves and non-Jews from consideration. That is a poorer philosophy but has the advantage of being consistent.

Or you could realize that these books were written by people that lived in a barbaric society and have are just their attempt at figuring things out. They are interesting as history but they have no special significance.
The parable is about the servant of God and is a reference to judgement.

The command of Christ was for Jew and gentile alike and equally.

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2016, 07:53 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 06:09 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Why wasnt Jesus, a god reincarnate(!) able (or willing?) to just simply say: "Slavery sucks. Stop that shit".
Jesus didn't claim to be GOD. Everything He said was in parables so the humble and rightly guided could understand. But the unbeliever would be confused. And by unbeliever I do not mean atheists.

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2016, 08:00 PM (This post was last modified: 20-09-2016 08:07 PM by popsthebuilder.)
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 10:14 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(20-09-2016 05:23 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Yeah I tried to justify slavery in the OT...honestly... I couldn't.

The pastor should have switched to the teachings and example of the Christ. The conversation would have been over at that point. Christ gave but two commands, both of which effectively nullify any attempt to justify owning another human life. You cannot follow the command to love your neighbor, brother, enemy and simultaneously own slaves.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
I see. So, in other words, God neglected to include "thou shalt not own slaves" in the OT commandments, but he did realize his mistake... perfect god that he is... and included 2 new commands that cover it... although he still didn't explicitly say slavery is wrong... perfect god that he is. Drinking Beverage And, of course, being the all-knowing god that he is, in OT times, he knew he would be doing this in NT times, but still left it out of the 10 commandments anyway... realized his mistake then and CHOSE to leave it out anyway. Dodgy How does this end the conversation again?
The Jewish perspective was manipulated somewhere along the line. This is apparent even in the OT as they are openly damned to exceeding torment as a price to pay for the misdirection they caused. The will of GOD is without change, yet different times and people call for different revelation.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2016, 09:32 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
(20-09-2016 08:00 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(20-09-2016 10:14 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I see. So, in other words, God neglected to include "thou shalt not own slaves" in the OT commandments, but he did realize his mistake... perfect god that he is... and included 2 new commands that cover it... although he still didn't explicitly say slavery is wrong... perfect god that he is. Drinking Beverage And, of course, being the all-knowing god that he is, in OT times, he knew he would be doing this in NT times, but still left it out of the 10 commandments anyway... realized his mistake then and CHOSE to leave it out anyway. Dodgy How does this end the conversation again?
The Jewish perspective was manipulated somewhere along the line. This is apparent even in the OT as they are openly damned to exceeding torment as a price to pay for the misdirection they caused. The will of GOD is without change, yet different times and people call for different revelation.

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

Revelation is delusion, not knowledge. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
20-09-2016, 10:19 PM
RE: Slavery Debate with Pastor
I'm know i'm right

Firstly treat they neighbor as thy self is probably one of the worst moral principles ever one should never treat someone else as thy self you should treat others as they wish to be treated one is genuine respect the other is arrogance

Secondly to answer your question yes of course masters treat there slaves as themselves if you happen to be a christain. After all you think of yourselves as slaves (as the preacher pointed out) ruled by a benevolent master .So why wouldn't to take some esle and treat them as you see yourself a slave .

Lastly please don't start the whole he was just a man nonsense. Paul's works were suppose to be inspired by the same god who inspired all the crap you take as literal truth. Sorry you don't get to pick and choose it's dishonest and incoherent.

[Image: giphy.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: