Slavery isn't bad... or something
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22-12-2014, 07:15 AM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2014 07:20 AM by RobbyPants.)
Slavery isn't bad... or something
So, I joined a Christian apologetics group on Facebook a few weeks ago, because I'm some sort of masochist, or something. It can be fun at times. There are a few people there who are interesting to talk to. There are no shortage of trolls there (although the Christian trolls far outweigh the atheist trolls). I've learned to just keep scrolling when I see posts where the entirety is "Atheists: is slavery wrong?".

Anyway, there was a post a couple days ago where a Christian was talking about slavery and how it was mentioned in the OT. I totally expected some Christians to come and defend it in one way or another, but I was actually surprised when one of the mods showed up and said that slavery actually isn't bad. Now, to put that in a slightly less creepy context, her stance is that slavery isn't bad, but keeping slaves against their will and treating them poorly is what's bad. Also, working for money is a form of slavery, or something, so we still do that too, or whatever.

A few people piled on and laid into her (I think one was even Christian). I asked her a few questions to get her to qualify her stance a bit more, but I wasn't in any way interested in getting into a morality debate with her. I learned a bit about her by reading her replies. She will jump around from point to point, frequently forgetting the context of the discussion. Sadly, she's a mod, and I wonder how much this impacts her ability to moderate a debate. So, here are some general defenses of slavery in the Bible, according to her:
  • Slavery isn't bad. Mistreatment of slaves and keeping them against their will is bad.
  • Working for money when you'd rather not is a form of slavery.
  • That was a different culture, and it worked for them. Who are we to say it's bad? (Note: this comment was made within 24 hours of her complaining about the nature of subjective morality in another post.)
  • There are passages in the OT talking about how slaves could stay with the family afterward, and many chose to.
  • Slavery was a way to pay off debts, and was more like indentured servitude.
  • There's no evidence that any of the slaves kept by the Hebrews were kept against their will.
  • Just because the OT has rules about how and when to beat your slaves doesn't mean that it ever actually happened.
  • She would be fine with slavery being brought back, so long as the slaves weren't kept against their will and were treated well.

On a related note, I've noticed many of the Christians have been ramping up their rhetoric in terms of what they post to bait and attack atheists. We'll have to see how long I just scroll past the troll posts and when I ultimately decide I don't like the time I spend there. They may end up "winning" this on, in so much that they drive off any dissenting points of view from their echo chamber. Time will tell whether or not they remember to use their indoor voices when not in their group. Personally, I love it when a fundie forgets they're not in their echo chamber and publicly says something that 85% of society finds stupidly offensive and repugnant. This is half of how fundamentalism dies out.
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22-12-2014, 08:01 AM
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
(22-12-2014 07:15 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  ...
indentured servitude.
...

aka "having a job".

Dodgy

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22-12-2014, 08:28 AM
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
Blatant cognitive dissonance like that really irritates...

(22-12-2014 07:15 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  * Slavery isn't bad. Mistreatment of slaves and keeping them against their will is bad.
* She would be fine with slavery being brought back, so long as the slaves weren't kept against their will and were treated well.
* Working for money when you'd rather not is a form of slavery.

How the hell can you apply the word slavery to a situation where people are treated well and are free to go? The whole "working is a form of slavery" argument drives me nuts. It sometimes really sucks that I have to work to earn some money to live but calling it 'slavery', even metaphorically, is like calling creationism a form of science. Oh wait, they do that too...Consider

Quote:* That was a different culture, and it worked for them. Who are we to say it's bad? (Note: this comment was made within 24 hours of her complaining about the nature of subjective morality in another post.)

Yeah, funny how moral relativism is completely evil except when it is needed to try to defend the abominable "morality" of the bible.

Quote:* There are passages in the OT talking about how slaves could stay with the family afterward, and many chose to.

You mean like when their spouses and children were still slaves? Even if some individual slaves really did think that staying was their best option, how that can justify the institution mystifies me.

Quote:* Slavery was a way to pay off debts, and was more like indentured servitude.

Some was. Those cases aren't the issue. Slaves that were owned as property and could be beaten and passed as inheritance were not indentured servants.

Quote:* There's no evidence that any of the slaves kept by the Hebrews were kept against their will.
* Just because the OT has rules about how and when to beat your slaves doesn't mean that it ever actually happened.

Denial is more than just a river in Egypt.

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America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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22-12-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
I had a chat with a Satanist last night about the bible and he said I was committing the fallacy of modern perception by saying "slavery is wrong now so an omniscient god would know it was bad then." He then I can only get out of that fallacy by supporting an objective morality standard, to which I replied, "Christians believe their god is the objective morality standard. So no fallacy." It was an interesting conversation and we arrived at the same place in the end.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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22-12-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
I'd be more interested in hearing why it's "bad".

If you were living in a time when slavery was acceptable by society, on what basis would you be able to say it was bad?
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22-12-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
I "get" what she is saying.

Not that I agree. But, I get it.

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22-12-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
(22-12-2014 09:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'd be more interested in hearing why it's "bad".

If you were living in a time when slavery was acceptable by society, on what basis would you be able to say it was bad?

You got a daughter? 'Cos if slavery's not bad and she's pretty I'll pay you good money. Don't worry about what she thinks, she'll just be a slave after all. I promise not to beat her with a rod thicker than my thumb, and I won't kill her either since that could get me into hot water with the priests.

Dodgy

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-12-2014, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2014 09:58 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
(22-12-2014 09:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  You got a daughter? 'Cos if slavery's not bad and she's pretty I'll pay you good money. Don't worry about what she thinks, she'll just be a slave after all. I promise not to beat her with a rod thicker than my thumb, and I won't kill her either since that could get me into hot water with the priests.


Are you suggesting it's wrong, because it doesn't follow the golden rule? That it's not doing unto others what we would desire done to ourselves, or to our daughters in this example?
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22-12-2014, 10:06 AM
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
Owning a person against that persons will is slavery.

There seems to be a big disconect with reality here.

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22-12-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: Slavery isn't bad... or something
(22-12-2014 09:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are you suggesting it's wrong, because it doesn't follow the golden rule? that's it not doing unto others what we would done to ourselves, or to our daughters in this example?

Euh Rolleyes I don't subscribe to morality myself, other than in the personal sense. Right or wrong in some kinda absolute religious sense are pointless debating. You'll end up talking about silly situations like if you had Ken Ham tied to one set of railroad tracks and William Lane Craig tied to another, and only *one* train and *one* set of points, which should you go for?

Slavery from my *own* pov is bad since you're taking away someone's freedom to determine their own life. If I don't want to be a slave, who the fuck are you to enslave me? Since your God is apparently good in some kind of universal sense, why does he condone it?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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