Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
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27-06-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)

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27-06-2012, 11:42 PM
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
Hello Smotherlove. As I said, there is no unique answer, so I can only generalize here, not give you a straight answer. I mentioned pot, because I know of some AA (Anti Addiction) groups and communes that use pot instead of any pills or substitute drugs. Everything I know about substitute drugs for getting off heroin is that they are even worse than heroin. Once you get hooked on those pills, you have a new problem. Pot is much better in that way. But since he is already 100 days clean, he does not need substitutes for his body, he needs something for his mind... Substitute drug is not the best solution for this, some activity is going to be much better.

I have a few friends that were or still are using heroin. I tried helping them, but until they wanted to be helped, there was nothing I could do.After a few months of babysitting one of them and after he would get clean for a year, as soon as it becomes boring for him he would start using again. Why, after all the torture and pain and trauma, why would anyone go back? Because he was bored. He didn't have anything to do, nobody to hang out with and it was a logical solution for him. The reason he didn't have any friends around was that he was a heroin addict, so he lost all his friends and I wasn't around all the time, I lived in a different part of the country, so I was there when I was there. Heroin is one fucked up closed circle, it looks almost impossible to get out and break that circle.

It also changes you. Heroin is completely fucked up because it changes who you are. It is slowly killing you emotions and, thanks to that, you start caring for people and things less and less. Even after you get clean, something "stays in your head" and you are not the same as you were. I am sure that Ohio's son has moments when he realizes what he is doing and how he ruined not only his life, but the lives of his family, children... Only, that moment lasts for a moment, after it he continues his day without caring for these things, his priorities are strange and hard to understand. He thinks that he is too far gone and that there is no going back now, so he lives one day at a time.

I got to ask, is your son on any kind of medication? Substitutes, or something? I personaly think he is better without anything, that shit is bad. You said he goes to AA meetings, but does he have some counsellor, like a psychologist, school counsellor, or something like that? Sometimes it is much easier to talk to unknown person, who has a legal and moral obligation to not talk about it to anyone. That gives him a sense of secrecy and privacy, so maybe he will open up more to someone like that, rather than to you, as you are his mother.

P.S.
Pot is not that bad for your lungs, and whoever said you need to smoke it, you can eat cookies as well. Smile

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03-07-2012, 08:50 AM
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
(27-06-2012 11:42 PM)Filox Wrote:  Hello Smotherlove. As I said, there is no unique answer, so I can only generalize here, not give you a straight answer. I mentioned pot, because I know of some AA (Anti Addiction) groups and communes that use pot instead of any pills or substitute drugs. Everything I know about substitute drugs for getting off heroin is that they are even worse than heroin. Once you get hooked on those pills, you have a new problem. Pot is much better in that way. But since he is already 100 days clean, he does not need substitutes for his body, he needs something for his mind... Substitute drug is not the best solution for this, some activity is going to be much better.

I have a few friends that were or still are using heroin. I tried helping them, but until they wanted to be helped, there was nothing I could do.After a few months of babysitting one of them and after he would get clean for a year, as soon as it becomes boring for him he would start using again. Why, after all the torture and pain and trauma, why would anyone go back? Because he was bored. He didn't have anything to do, nobody to hang out with and it was a logical solution for him. The reason he didn't have any friends around was that he was a heroin addict, so he lost all his friends and I wasn't around all the time, I lived in a different part of the country, so I was there when I was there. Heroin is one fucked up closed circle, it looks almost impossible to get out and break that circle.

It also changes you. Heroin is completely fucked up because it changes who you are. It is slowly killing you emotions and, thanks to that, you start caring for people and things less and less. Even after you get clean, something "stays in your head" and you are not the same as you were. I am sure that Ohio's son has moments when he realizes what he is doing and how he ruined not only his life, but the lives of his family, children... Only, that moment lasts for a moment, after it he continues his day without caring for these things, his priorities are strange and hard to understand. He thinks that he is too far gone and that there is no going back now, so he lives one day at a time.

I got to ask, is your son on any kind of medication? Substitutes, or something? I personaly think he is better without anything, that shit is bad. You said he goes to AA meetings, but does he have some counsellor, like a psychologist, school counsellor, or something like that? Sometimes it is much easier to talk to unknown person, who has a legal and moral obligation to not talk about it to anyone. That gives him a sense of secrecy and privacy, so maybe he will open up more to someone like that, rather than to you, as you are his mother.

P.S.
Pot is not that bad for your lungs, and whoever said you need to smoke it, you can eat cookies as well. Smile



He was prescribed an anti-depressant and and anti-psychotic. I did not ok Suboxone or Methadone at the detox since I know he'd probably wind up hooked on them too.

All the driugs did a number on his brain, as he's been pretty paranoid, depressed and angry. He has not been physical with us, but has gotten into a couple of fist fights within these past few months with other guys. During one of the fights, he got so angry that he didn't remember punching four other boys in the face and head. The medication doesn't leave him a drooling idiot, but does take the edge off. As for a doctor, he starts going but then makes excuses when he doesn't keep the appointments.

Unfortunately, he started smoking spice and refered to a drug called "cat" in one of his texts to a friend. I googled it, and found out it is an amphetamine. We tried to get him back into rehab last week. He even packed his bag himself, he knows he needs more help. Unfortunately, my insurance will not cover another stay this year, and we have emptied our retirement plan savings. So we are looking into other options like applying for Medicaid, or even a court mandated rehab. (I know what people may be thinking - but no I do not want a handout.) The court will be our last option. He would be in with some pretty hardened junkies. Maybe this will wake him up to what his future may entail if he continues on this path?

Ever since this hot mess began, I have thought of a poem by Elizabeth Bishop. This may not make sense, but it reminds me of drawing a line of "I could never handle that.." and then stepping over that line only to realize that you can handle it, and onto draw another that gets stepped over.




    One Art




The art of losing isn't hard to master;
so many things seem filled with the intent
to be lost that their loss is no disaster,

Lose something every day. Accept the fluster
of lost door keys, the hour badly spent.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

Then practice losing farther, losing faster:
places, and names, and where it was you meant
to travel. None of these will bring disaster.

I lost my mother's watch. And look! my last, or
next-to-last, of three beloved houses went.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

I lost two cities, lovely ones. And, vaster,
some realms I owned, two rivers, a continent.
I miss them, but it wasn't a disaster.

- Even losing you (the joking voice, a gesture
I love) I shan't have lied. It's evident
the art of losing's not too hard to master
though it may look like (Write it!) like a disaster.

Heart Be good for goodness sake!
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05-07-2012, 03:28 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2012 03:32 AM by Filox.)
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
Quote: Unfortunately, he started smoking spice and refered to a drug called
"cat" in one of his texts to a friend. I googled it, and found out it is
an amphetamine.
I did not fully understand this part. Did he smoke spices or amphetamines? What was he refering to when he said "cat", some spices he smoked, or amphetamines?

Because, young people try to get high with all sorts of legal things, some of them include various spices. They get you a little high, but nothing serious, everybody learns rather fasts that smoking spices is stupid and gets you nowhere. So if he was referring to that, that is in no way a reason to go back to rehab. He could be using the name "cat" for something else, not amphetamines.

If he did take amphetamines, then the situation is a bit more serious, but, again, not as bad as it seems. Amphetamines do not make you hard addicted, really fast, it takes time to get hooked, physically. Crack, meth and heroin are much worse, stronger and faster to get you hooked. Taking amphetamines is bad at this moment because it shows his mental health and his mental addiction to any drug. This one time is not going to do anything to him, but it is a sign that he is still thinking about it, he still wants it and he is still trying to bypass your rules and restrictions. Mental addiction is far longer and harder to get rid of than real physical addiction.

It is very good that you did not give him any substitute drugs for his withdrawal. It would fuck him up worse than heroin, Methadone is even harder to kick off than heroin is. Also, those things get a good price on the street, so he could not take them, sell them and buy heroin with that money. A lot of heroin addict do that and cheat the health care system that way. They actually get free heroin that way.

Don't you have any free, volunteer clinics, or groups that can help you? Here (in Croatia) every AA clinic is volunteer, free of charge, most people working there are ex-addicts and some psychiatrists. Most of those clinics/organizations are connected with Catholic Church, so they tend to have some nuns as well. Those clinics (communes actually) include praying and work. You work and help out with the daily chores and you pray a few times a day. It is a bit of brainwashing and most of the ex-addicts that come out of there are highly religious after it, they find God and they keep Him close. So be careful about all this...

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05-07-2012, 06:04 PM
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
(27-06-2012 10:05 AM)beeluv Wrote:  
(26-06-2012 08:39 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I wish I had an answer, if I did it would come in handy in my life.

My middle daughter has an addiction to coke and crack. It's been going on for years. Her father had addiction issues and died at 24 drunk/drugged driving, she was three at the time. That's what makes me think it's genetic, cause she was too young to learn it from him although she walks the same path. She is 30 now.

We have dealt with MAJOR legal issues with the ATF with her due in part to selling to feed her habit. She does well for a while then relapses. We are now 1000 miles apart but even when in the same town, it often felt we were a million miles apart.

Things didn't get out of control till she was an adult and out of the house.

Even as a late teen, early 20 something we knew something was up when she would 'disappear'. She would call and say she was coming to eat on Sunday. We would wait for her, call, wait some more and sometimes we wouldn't hear from her again for three weeks. Binge time.

In the last few years she will drop contact after being really unpredictable and combative. I can always tell when things are on the downward spiral.

I care, I care a lot, but I can't invest everything in her situation. Until she is ready to accept help, I can't really do much except hope the good times last longer and longer till eventually she is in control.

In between, I often expect her to have the same fate as her father. I couldn't save him either though I tried.

I sure don't envy what you are dealing with, I lost a zillion hours of my life worrying about her and I am sure there are many more to come.

Be sure to take some time for yourself so you don't break.


My friend is trying to talk me into going to the beach on Sunday, so I think I will. I hope you do things for yourself too. Moms tend to put others before themselves.

I know it sounds nuts, but sometimes I am jealous of people who believe. For them, god has the answer to all of life's problems. I spend so much time researching, thinking/re-thinking and trying to learn from other's experiences, I'd like to convert and stick my head in the sand too. I'd like to stop blaming myself and tell people that it's in god's plan for my family.

Why does the truth always need to be so painful?

Everything is pointing in the same direction. I need to slowly detach as much as possible in order to save him and myself. This will be the most difficult thing I do in my life. At least I hope so...
I don't think belief is the solution. My good friend has been battling her oldest son's addictions for a few years now. She knows what can happen, she grew up with addicted parents. She is also a person of extremely strong faith, but she is also a realist.

When I talked to her early in May she said she had to ban him (again) from the house because of his dishonesty, theft, and bad influence on her four younger sons that aren't heading down that same road. Detaching is what she is having to do for now at least. She had to weigh the good of the whole family against enabling him.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude.
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05-07-2012, 06:41 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2012 09:15 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
(05-07-2012 03:28 AM)Filox Wrote:  
Quote: Unfortunately, he started smoking spice and refered to a drug called
"cat" in one of his texts to a friend. I googled it, and found out it is
an amphetamine.
What was he refering to when he said "cat", some spices he smoked, or amphetamines?

This: Khat

It's pretty tame, like coffee tame, as long as you're just chewing leaves. Kinda like chewing coca leaves is coffee tame until you distill them into cocaine.

My mother was faced with a similar situation a few months before my youngest brother turned 18 yo some three decades ago now. He was an acid head. He wasn't addicted to the drug (LSD is about the least physically addictive psychotropic I can think of, body's got no clue how to get acclimated to that), he was addicted to the trip. First she tried to move him from public High School to a parochial Christian school. He quickly established a monopoly market within the Christian school. She finally gave in and had him committed to rehab just months before he turned 18 while she still could. At first he tried to set up a market in rehab. That didn't go so well. Rehab employees ain't fooled by that roll of postage stamps you just giving out of the goodness of your heart. Today he's a Senior Vice President of Actuaries (whatever the fuck that means) for MetLife at 46 yo. It don't have to be a death sentence or even a life sentence. Dudes grow up and either work their own shit out or they don't. You have some influence with the helm and course heading as a parent, but it is limited.

Be love, beeluv.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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06-07-2012, 04:14 AM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2012 11:29 AM by Filox.)
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
Thanx for the info Girly.

Beeluv, this is not the reason to send him to rehab, or to bash his head with stories how he is on his way to die. These leafs are as bad as coffee or tea, if it helps him a bit, nag him a little, but do not give too much attention to that. There are much bigger concerns that you need to pay attention to.

I looks much worse that it actually is, but some weak leaves will not throw him back to addiction or using heroin. They certainly are not the reason to put him in rehab, in a clinic, among people who are still addicted to heroin. Rehab is the last resort, when all other options are gone, this is not the case, not if only the leaves are a problem.

I do not know the whole situation, maybe there are more problems, but do not worry about leaves, the tobacco he smokes in cigarettes is more dangerous and more addictive than all those leaves of Khat.

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As you can see here, it makes almost no effect on his health and almost no addiction. Look where tobacco and alcohol are, this is way down on the bottom of the list. You have to know when to make certain compromises. That way he may start trusting in your judgment and that will bring you two closer, so you will be able to talk things through and that is the main thing you should be focused on. If that works, most of your problems will start to go away. yours and his, because you will be able to influence him.

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06-07-2012, 09:06 AM
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
(05-07-2012 03:28 AM)Filox Wrote:  
Quote: Unfortunately, he started smoking spice and refered to a drug called
"cat" in one of his texts to a friend. I googled it, and found out it is
an amphetamine.

I did not fully understand this part. Did he smoke spices or amphetamines? What was he refering to when he said "cat", some spices he smoked, or amphetamines?

Because, young people try to get high with all sorts of legal things, some of them include various spices. They get you a little high, but nothing serious, everybody learns rather fasts that smoking spices is stupid and gets you nowhere. So if he was referring to that, that is in no way a reason to go back to rehab. He could be using the name "cat" for something else, not amphetamines.

If he did take amphetamines, then the situation is a bit more serious, but, again, not as bad as it seems. Amphetamines do not make you hard addicted, really fast, it takes time to get hooked, physically. Crack, meth and heroin are much worse, stronger and faster to get you hooked. Taking amphetamines is bad at this moment because it shows his mental health and his mental addiction to any drug. This one time is not going to do anything to him, but it is a sign that he is still thinking about it, he still wants it and he is still trying to bypass your rules and restrictions. Mental addiction is far longer and harder to get rid of than real physical addiction.

It is very good that you did not give him any substitute drugs for his withdrawal. It would fuck him up worse than heroin, Methadone is even harder to kick off than heroin is. Also, those things get a good price on the street, so he could not take them, sell them and buy heroin with that money. A lot of heroin addict do that and cheat the health care system that way. They actually get free heroin that way.

Don't you have any free, volunteer clinics, or groups that can help you? Here (in Croatia) every AA clinic is volunteer, free of charge, most people working there are ex-addicts and some psychiatrists. Most of those clinics/organizations are connected with Catholic Church, so they tend to have some nuns as well. Those clinics (communes actually) include praying and work. You work and help out with the daily chores and you pray a few times a day. It is a bit of brainwashing and most of the ex-addicts that come out of there are highly religious after it, they find God and they keep Him close. So be careful about all this...



I asked him about the Cat reference in his phone. He told me that he misspelled tat for cat. It is believable that he was refering to a tat (tattoo). Unfortunately the kid got one from an apprentice for $20. So I overreacted, the silly twit that I am! He says he never used it (methcathinone-taken through injections, orally via pill or smoked from leaves). Here in the US it is not a readily available drug since it is not used for any legal purposes unlike methamphetamine, which can be used to treat narcolepsy and ADHD.

Spice is synthetic pot, which he has been using. From the studies that I have read, there is very good evidence that synthetic cannabis can bring about prolonged pyschosis, especially for those with a family history of mental illness. Also, it can cause convulsions and heart attacks. It is sold legally in my state in gas stations and convience stores. That's not to say that natural pot is a better alternative, although there are conflicting studies. There is solid evidence that frequent use brings on and/or hastens psychosis and schizophrenia.

In the states no care is free unless you are below the poverty line. If you are wealthy then you can afford lush treatment centers. We are in the struggling middle class. The treatment center my son went to is run by the state, but we still had to pay a large portion. Our insurance paid for one week at another rehab, but refused further services so we had to take him home.

Religous orders do not offer care here. I wouldn't want to send him nor would he go willingly anyway. We take him to NA and AA only because it is does not cast money and the diety-free groups are not as easy to find. For the most part, there is very little emphasis on religion.

rdt L, Hall W, Lynskey M (2001) (PDF). Comorbidity between cannabis use and psychosis: Modelling some possible relationships. Technical Report No. 121.. Sydney: National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre.. http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/NDARCWeb.ns...TR.121.PDF. Retrieved 2006-08-19.

Leweke FM, Koethe D (June 2008). "Cannabis and psychiatric disorders: it is not only addiction". Addictl 13 (2): 264–75. DOI:10.1111/j.1369-1600.2008.00106.x. PMID 18482435.

Heart Be good for goodness sake!
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06-07-2012, 09:54 AM
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
(05-07-2012 06:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-07-2012 03:28 AM)Filox Wrote:  What was he refering to when he said "cat", some spices he smoked, or amphetamines?


This: Khat

It's pretty tame, like coffee tame, as long as you're just chewing leaves. Kinda like chewing coca leaves is coffee tame until you distill them into cocaine.

My mother was faced with a similar situation a few months before my youngest brother turned 18 yo some three decades ago now. He was an acid head. He wasn't addicted to the drug (LSD is about the least physically addictive psychotropic I can think of, body's got no clue how to get acclimated to that), he was addicted to the trip. First she tried to move him from public High School to a parochial Christian school. He quickly established a monopoly market within the Christian school. She finally gave in and had him committed to rehab just months before he turned 18 while she still could. At first he tried to set up a market in rehab. That didn't go so well. Rehab employees ain't fooled by that roll of postage stamps you just giving out of the goodness of your heart. Today he's a Senior Vice President of Actuaries (whatever the fuck that means) for MetLife at 46 yo. It don't have to be a death sentence or even a life sentence. Dudes grow up and either work their own shit out or they don't. You have some influence with the helm and course heading as a parent, but it is limited.

Be love, beeluv.



Senior Vice President of Actuaries (whatever the fuck that means) for MetLife at 46 yo.

In my son's language "That means he's makin' bank, yo!". Thanks for that! Maybe there is hope for this deviant after all.

Heart Be good for goodness sake!
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06-07-2012, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2012 11:32 AM by Filox.)
RE: Smotherlove (17yr old drug addicted son)
OK, I have to correct you on a few things...



First, I didn't know about that "spice", I thought he was trying to get high with something from a kitchen. That is not cannabis at all, if it is sold legally on gas stations, that is something only called that way, so that people can understand it quicker. Never ever have I heard that meth is used for treating anything, whoever gave you that idea? Meth is one of, if not THE most dangerous drug on the market, it melts you away. No hospital is using that shit, that is too raw and too fucked up.

Now, you said that spice can be dangerous. Probably, that shit is kinda new, nobody knows what it does yet, nobody bothered to test it properly.

But you are wrong about weed causing mental illness, that is just wrong point of view.

Quote:A study of 50,000 Swedish soldiers who had smoked at least once were twice as likely to develop schizophrenia as those who had not smoked. The study concluded that either smoking caused a higher rate of schizophrenia, or that those with schizophrenia were more likely to be drawn to cannabis.


A study by Keele University commissioned by the British government found that between 1996 and 2005 there had been significant reductions in the incidence and prevalence of schizophrenia. From 2000 onwards there were also significant reductions in the prevalence of psychoses.

That bolded part is crucial, it is the fact that most people who have some disorder will try to self-medicate with cannabis, that is why there are a lot of psychos that smoke weed, they are trying to be more relaxed and to cure themselves. They would have schizophrenia with or without weed.

I'll stop with promoting weed, but mark my words, you could thank all the gods in this world if your son decides to ONLY smoke weed and never take anything else. That is the kind of thinking that would save his life and ruin nothing.

My "professional" opinion is that he has to vent somewhere, he will not be satisfied until he finds something that can replace everything else (concerning drugs, not life). Now that can be pot, alcohol or any other stronger drug. I would pray for pot if I were you, it helped me in so many ways I can't even begin to explain. There is no way I wouldn't be an alcoholic now if didn't smoke pot all the time. Still do and I live, work, have normal life, friends, family, I know 3 foreign languages, finished college, a few other courses... Normal, everyday guy. And I was pretty similar to your son, bat-shit crazy, snorted anything that I could buy, partied like animal... Smile

Go slow, think things through, read...

Here, search this, you will find more info here than anywhere else.

http://www.erowid.org/

And remember, sometimes you have to choose between 2 evils, choose the lesser evil. We can't always get only good things...

EDIT:
It does appear that meth can be prescribed... Pretty retarded fact, if you ask me.

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