Snowden Situation
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26-07-2013, 09:54 PM
Snowden Situation
So, what is to be made of the Snowden Situation? My opinion is that he is a hero and should probably stay in Russia and figure his plans out. I want to know what you guys think, should he be extradited? Should he stay in Russia? Did Putin aid him when he arrived in Moscow? I want to know everything and anything.

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26-07-2013, 09:58 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(26-07-2013 09:54 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  So, what is to be made of the Snowden Situation? My opinion is that he is a hero and should probably stay in Russia and figure his plans out. I want to know what you guys think, should he be extradited? Should he stay in Russia? Did Putin aid him when he arrived in Moscow? I want to know everything and anything.

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He's a traitor and a criminal and was only interested in making himself famous not in any noble goal (look at where he ran for a clue as to those he holds council with) He had legal options available to him that he chose to ignore (he never tried them so claiming they may have been ineffective is a dodge) He is no better than Julian Assange a self-promoter hiding behind the guise of protecting free speech.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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26-07-2013, 10:08 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
Quote:He's a traitor and a criminal and was only interested in making himself famous not in any noble goal (look at where he ran for a clue as to those he holds council with) He had legal options available to him that he chose to ignore (he never tried them so claiming they may have been ineffective is a dodge) He is no better than Julian Assange a self-promoter hiding behind the guise of protecting free speech.

How is disclosing vital information about the NSA that would make him constantly be on the run for the foreseeable future a selfish act. He had to leave his girlfriend in order to protect her and has been sitting in an airport for days waiting to find out his fate. He has worn the same pair of clothes the whole time and has had contact only with his human rights officer. I hardly find that an ideal situation planned out in order to gain fame. RussiaToday has videos that dwarf american reporting on this subject.

Girlfriend: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ed-in.html

RussiaToday: http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday

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26-07-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(26-07-2013 10:08 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
Quote:He's a traitor and a criminal and was only interested in making himself famous not in any noble goal (look at where he ran for a clue as to those he holds council with) He had legal options available to him that he chose to ignore (he never tried them so claiming they may have been ineffective is a dodge) He is no better than Julian Assange a self-promoter hiding behind the guise of protecting free speech.

How is disclosing vital information about the NSA that would make him constantly be on the run for the foreseeable future a selfish act. He had to leave his girlfriend in order to protect her and has been sitting in an airport for days waiting to find out his fate. He has worn the same pair of clothes the whole time and has had contact only with his human rights officer. I hardly find that an ideal situation planned out in order to gain fame. RussiaToday has videos that dwarf american reporting on this subject.

Girlfriend: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ed-in.html

RussiaToday: http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday

Yes, lets start with this he began in china (a notorious violator of both freedom of speech and human rights) then went to russia which has of course just made blasphemy a crime with a 10 year sentence and has made even discussion of Homosexuality a felony, great company he's keeping. His "Plan" has gone to shit ever since China booted him thats why it isn't working out for him. As for exposing the NSA what exactly did he expose? If anyone did not know the NSA monitored electronic information they were wilfully ignorant. His only noteworthy act was to allow terrorists to see exactly how information is processed so they can learn to change their communications.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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26-07-2013, 10:46 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
Quote:Yes, lets start with this he began in china (a notorious violator of both freedom of speech and human rights) then went to russia which has of course just made blasphemy a crime with a 10 year sentence and has made even discussion of Homosexuality a felony, great company he's keeping. His "Plan" has gone to shit ever since China booted him thats why it isn't working out for him. As for exposing the NSA what exactly did he expose? If anyone did not know the NSA monitored electronic information they were wilfully ignorant. His only noteworthy act was to allow terrorists to see exactly how information is processed so they can learn to change their communications.

Well those are the places he had to go because neither have treaties to extradite citizens back to the US. He exposed that the US has been spying on us for years which not only is wrong but breaks the law. It is enough to get Obama impeached and totally embarrasses the CIA and others involved. I would say that that is a pretty noble thing to do considering all the things he had to give up.

I don't know about your relations with the general public, but I would doubt if most Americans even knew what the NSA was before Snowden and Assange. If you need to see just how pitifully ignorant the general public is, look at my thread about the Gallup polls.

As for the terrorist argument, I would say that after the whole thing with the CIA interest with the 9/11 terrorists before it even happened cleared up that subject pretty well for Al Queda and others. That being they can get away with a lot before any arrests are made. I don't know about today's regulations, but I would think the terrorists know about CIA regulations better then we probably do.

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26-07-2013, 11:13 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(26-07-2013 10:46 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
Quote:Yes, lets start with this he began in china (a notorious violator of both freedom of speech and human rights) then went to russia which has of course just made blasphemy a crime with a 10 year sentence and has made even discussion of Homosexuality a felony, great company he's keeping. His "Plan" has gone to shit ever since China booted him thats why it isn't working out for him. As for exposing the NSA what exactly did he expose? If anyone did not know the NSA monitored electronic information they were wilfully ignorant. His only noteworthy act was to allow terrorists to see exactly how information is processed so they can learn to change their communications.

Well those are the places he had to go because neither have treaties to extradite citizens back to the US. He exposed that the US has been spying on us for years which not only is wrong but breaks the law. It is enough to get Obama impeached and totally embarrasses the CIA and others involved. I would say that that is a pretty noble thing to do considering all the things he had to give up.

Except it isn't, it wont, it hasn't, and the story has gone now. The way he did this is why nothing came of it. Actually nothing he exposed was illegal. The rubberstamp warrants are still legal. The fact that you think this was illegal tells me how much you actually know about the situation.

Quote:I don't know about your relations with the general public, but I would doubt if most Americans even knew what the NSA was before Snowden and Assange. If you need to see just how pitifully ignorant the general public is, look at my thread about the Gallup polls.
I don't care about people who are wilfully ignorant they get what they deserve.

Quote:As for the terrorist argument, I would say that after the whole thing with the CIA interest with the 9/11 terrorists before it even happened cleared up that subject pretty well for Al Queda and others. That being they can get away with a lot before any arrests are made. I don't know about today's regulations, but I would think the terrorists know about CIA regulations better then we probably do.

Comparing the CIA's action pre 9/11 to today is very much apples and oranges. As for how we are tracking them no they did not know. They had still be using traceable phones for their e-mails up until the snowden leak so yes it hurt those efforts. He actively hurt field operations thus he is a traitor.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2013, 12:05 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
Listen, Okay? What snowden did was the actions of a Traitor...if there was a way to make sure that ONLY americans would see his information that he leaked, then he'd be a "Hero" I guess...but the fact remains that he allowed highly classified information to become open source to the ENTIRE WORLD. Everyone can see this shit, not just us. He allowed Enemies of the United States to obtain this information. Bottom line, thats treason or at the very least, criminal negligence. Facts are facts, and Law is Law.

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27-07-2013, 12:29 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2013 12:41 AM by elegant_atheist.)
RE: Snowden Situation
Quote:Actually nothing he exposed was illegal. The rubberstamp warrants are still legal. The fact that you think this was illegal tells me how much you actually know about the situation.

Do you enjoy civil liberties like privacy? How would you feel if the government, especially the FBI, went behind your back, called a secret court of 11 members on a cell phone and asked for a warrant to electronically monitor you. You wouldn't even have a say or right to defense in the decision. Their reason would be that you were a suspected "agent" of a foreign power or terrorists on US soil, or as of late they don't even site a reason. I suspect you wouldn't be too happy.

The fact that you don't seem to condone these actions seems reprehensible to me. Anyone that wants to live under a government that secretly obtain "legal" warrants to spy on your every move is a person that wants to live in a repressive, overbearing state.

National security letters are written demands from the FBI that compel Internet service providers, credit companies, financial institutions and others to hand over confidential records about their customers, such as subscriber information, phone numbers and e-mail addresses, websites visited, and more.

They do not require court approval, and the FBI need merely assert that the information is “relevant” to an investigation, and anyone who gets a national security letter is prohibited from disclosing that they’ve received one.

These letters violate our right to privacy in the 4th and 5th amendment to the constitution. These seizures of property are extremely unreasonable and cannot be allowed to happen. Here there is no due process of law except a phone call that compels a secret court to hand over anything the FBI wants. I say compel because the businesses cannot reject the national security letter nor tell the victim of the invasion. The FISA courts also almost never reject a request sent in by the FBI.

Quote:Ten months later, halfway around the world, Edward Snowden was monitoring the systems that were collecting this illegally accessed very private citizen data. And the data was not just from ordinary Americans and Chinese, but from all our friends and allies — Germany, Australia, Canada, Scandinavia, Latin and South America, and many others.

It took three months for Snowden to decide to put a stop to this illegal activity.

If Snowden were a criminal, he could have exploited the data. Or sold it to identity thieves. Or, even sold it to a foreign enemy.

But in order to do the right thing — and expose the crime — Snowden would have to give up his own life and throw himself on the mercy of the ordinary citizens of the world.

Yes, the collection of this kind of personal data is illegal in almost every nation in the world.

The right to privacy from electronic surveillance is granted in most national constitutions. This expectation of privacy has been declared a human right by the UN. It is a crime to collect it secretly.

-http://topinfopost.com/2013/06/26/us-and...n-blowback

These actions of the FBI and secret court are against the law in every sense of the word, and since they have even ADMITTED to doing so, you are the one that does not know the facts. Why don't you get your facts straight before accusing others of incompetency regarding the subject? I ask you, if your government was breaking the law so blatantly and you knew about it, would you sit back and say "well it is illegal for me to tell the public about this, so I won't do anything about it?" My answer is absolutely not, sometimes you need to break the law in order to expose the injustices of your government. If you still need reassurance, look at these sites.

NSA and Verison call monitoring- http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun...ourt-order

Court admits to allowing the NSA to break the law- http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-spyin...ion-2013-6

Great amazingatheist video on subject- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etm4dHdaApo

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27-07-2013, 02:14 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2013 02:17 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 12:29 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Do you enjoy civil liberties like privacy? How would you feel if the government, especially the FBI, went behind your back, called a secret court of 11 members on a cell phone and asked for a warrant to electronically monitor you. You wouldn't even have a say or right to defense in the decision. Their reason would be that you were a suspected "agent" of a foreign power or terrorists on US soil, or as of late they don't even site a reason. I suspect you wouldn't be too happy.

The fact that you don't seem to condone these actions seems reprehensible to me. Anyone that wants to live under a government that secretly obtain "legal" warrants to spy on your every move is a person that wants to live in a repressive, overbearing state.

National security letters are written demands from the FBI that compel Internet service providers, credit companies, financial institutions and others to hand over confidential records about their customers, such as subscriber information, phone numbers and e-mail addresses, websites visited, and more.

They do not require court approval, and the FBI need merely assert that the information is “relevant” to an investigation, and anyone who gets a national security letter is prohibited from disclosing that they’ve received one.

These letters violate our right to privacy in the 4th and 5th amendment to the constitution. These seizures of property are extremely unreasonable and cannot be allowed to happen. Here there is no due process of law except a phone call that compels a secret court to hand over anything the FBI wants. I say compel because the businesses cannot reject the national security letter nor tell the victim of the invasion. The FISA courts also almost never reject a request sent in by the FBI.

He never said he liked what the NSA has been doing. He simply pointed out that what they are doing is considered legal, similar to how he and I both despise corporate lobbying, but that is legal too. Drinking Beverage

(27-07-2013 12:29 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  -http://topinfopost.com/2013/06/26/us-and...n-blowback

These actions of the FBI and secret court are against the law in every sense of the word, and since they have even ADMITTED to doing so, you are the one that does not know the facts. Why don't you get your facts straight before accusing others of incompetency regarding the subject? I ask you, if your government was breaking the law so blatantly and you knew about it, would you sit back and say "well it is illegal for me to tell the public about this, so I won't do anything about it?" My answer is absolutely not, sometimes you need to break the law in order to expose the injustices of your government. If you still need reassurance, look at these sites.

NSA and Verison call monitoring- http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun...ourt-order

Court admits to allowing the NSA to break the law- http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-spyin...ion-2013-6

Great amazingatheist video on subject- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etm4dHdaApo

He exposed nothing and, to show for it, what has been done? Nothing. That is the point.

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27-07-2013, 07:52 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 12:29 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
Quote:Actually nothing he exposed was illegal. The rubberstamp warrants are still legal. The fact that you think this was illegal tells me how much you actually know about the situation.

Do you enjoy civil liberties like privacy? How would you feel if the government, especially the FBI, went behind your back, called a secret court of 11 members on a cell phone and asked for a warrant to electronically monitor you. You wouldn't even have a say or right to defense in the decision. Their reason would be that you were a suspected "agent" of a foreign power or terrorists on US soil, or as of late they don't even site a reason. I suspect you wouldn't be too happy.

The fact that you don't seem to condone these actions seems reprehensible to me. Anyone that wants to live under a government that secretly obtain "legal" warrants to spy on your every move is a person that wants to live in a repressive, overbearing state.

National security letters are written demands from the FBI that compel Internet service providers, credit companies, financial institutions and others to hand over confidential records about their customers, such as subscriber information, phone numbers and e-mail addresses, websites visited, and more.

They do not require court approval, and the FBI need merely assert that the information is “relevant” to an investigation, and anyone who gets a national security letter is prohibited from disclosing that they’ve received one.

These letters violate our right to privacy in the 4th and 5th amendment to the constitution. These seizures of property are extremely unreasonable and cannot be allowed to happen. Here there is no due process of law except a phone call that compels a secret court to hand over anything the FBI wants. I say compel because the businesses cannot reject the national security letter nor tell the victim of the invasion. The FISA courts also almost never reject a request sent in by the FBI.

Quote:Ten months later, halfway around the world, Edward Snowden was monitoring the systems that were collecting this illegally accessed very private citizen data. And the data was not just from ordinary Americans and Chinese, but from all our friends and allies — Germany, Australia, Canada, Scandinavia, Latin and South America, and many others.

It took three months for Snowden to decide to put a stop to this illegal activity.

If Snowden were a criminal, he could have exploited the data. Or sold it to identity thieves. Or, even sold it to a foreign enemy.

But in order to do the right thing — and expose the crime — Snowden would have to give up his own life and throw himself on the mercy of the ordinary citizens of the world.

Yes, the collection of this kind of personal data is illegal in almost every nation in the world.

The right to privacy from electronic surveillance is granted in most national constitutions. This expectation of privacy has been declared a human right by the UN. It is a crime to collect it secretly.

-http://topinfopost.com/2013/06/26/us-and...n-blowback

These actions of the FBI and secret court are against the law in every sense of the word, and since they have even ADMITTED to doing so, you are the one that does not know the facts. Why don't you get your facts straight before accusing others of incompetency regarding the subject? I ask you, if your government was breaking the law so blatantly and you knew about it, would you sit back and say "well it is illegal for me to tell the public about this, so I won't do anything about it?" My answer is absolutely not, sometimes you need to break the law in order to expose the injustices of your government. If you still need reassurance, look at these sites.

NSA and Verison call monitoring- http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun...ourt-order

Court admits to allowing the NSA to break the law- http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-spyin...ion-2013-6

Great amazingatheist video on subject- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etm4dHdaApo

Where did I claim I support the NSA? However what they are doing is legal right now (borderline unconstitutional but thats for a court to decide) Everything else you posted is fluff. Your Hero's actions made the world a more dangerous place and resulted in exactly 0 change. He went about this the wrong way and made himself the story that is why I dislike him.

Had he instead attempted to do this the correct way and then if the system failed (which it might have we will never know now) had leaked to the press anonymously then he has my respect but this dog and pony show of his was just a giant ego trip. Snowden is the worst kind of activist, the one that puts himself in front of the movement and sets the movement back because of it, think Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton. I'll be honest I don't care what condition he is living in right now because he made his bed now he gets to lay in it. Snowden is all flash no substance and a criminal to boot so no he is not a hero in any sense of the word.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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