Snowden Situation
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-07-2013, 10:43 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:11 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Okay guys, the NSA actions are legal....for now. The fact that they are is fucking crazy in my mind, and until today I would've NEVER guessed that someone would support a government agency spying on its citizens without a need for a good reason through a secretly made court that almost never denies warrants. The National Security Letters that demand mandatory handover of all personal information from private companies without the needed knowledge of the victim of the invasion is also appalling to me. Maybe I am naive for not wanting this to happen but I doubt I will change my view anytime soon.

Eventually, the law will be allowed to expire and it will then become moot.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2013, 10:44 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:33 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 10:11 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Okay guys, the NSA actions are legal....for now. The fact that they are is fucking crazy in my mind, and until today I would've NEVER guessed that someone would support a government agency spying on its citizens without a need for a good reason through a secretly made court that almost never denies warrants. The National Security Letters that demand mandatory handover of all personal information from private companies without the needed knowledge of the victim of the invasion is also appalling to me. Maybe I am naive for not wanting this to happen but I doubt I will change my view anytime soon.

Well now that thats out of the way we can move on to the morality of the spy game and how you would fix it.

Does Prism represent a good or a bad thing? A far more interesting topic than one Edward Snowden. I can see it's usefulness in the current Geopolitical landscape but I can also see how it could be abused (granted not on the scale that you suggest I don't think it's possible for every piece of data to be viewed so it is always limited to keywords and phrases) Really for me the troubling thing is the rubberstamp warrants. Never refusing a warrant makes it pointless to require one. Change this and I'm ok with Prism staying the way it is now.

I think it is a bad thing. Someone has to figure out how to provide all promised rights to the one in question while allowing them a lawyer in a court first. Then, in this court it must be proven that they are sufficiently suspected of a crime or future crime. This being done, we have to figure out how to not scare them into being super careful in their communication methods. The day all this is done is the day it will be a good thing. In all cases, there cannot be any infringes on rights to anyone no matter how suspected they are. I realize that this will probably never happen but I would really like the government to be more sneaky if they want to break the law.

[Image: g-HitchensThinkSelf.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2013, 10:46 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:43 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 10:11 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Okay guys, the NSA actions are legal....for now. The fact that they are is fucking crazy in my mind, and until today I would've NEVER guessed that someone would support a government agency spying on its citizens without a need for a good reason through a secretly made court that almost never denies warrants. The National Security Letters that demand mandatory handover of all personal information from private companies without the needed knowledge of the victim of the invasion is also appalling to me. Maybe I am naive for not wanting this to happen but I doubt I will change my view anytime soon.

Eventually, the law will be allowed to expire and it will then become moot.

I wouldn't count on that happening we are now at 12 years and counting and I don't see any rush by either party to remove that act. The problem is the general malaise of the public to things like this. The masses don't care or don't know so there is no impulse to act.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2013, 10:47 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2013 11:00 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:29 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 10:17 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I don't think it's naive to not want this to happen, I just think its naive to expect it to NOT happen.

Fight the good fight, brother, but don't fucking make false claims.

Umm... I don't expect this to happen. I don't understand why this is so controversial, when I say the pledge of allegiance "liberty and justice for all" I expect that to happen, since it is backed by the Bill of Rights. Arguing over the technicalities of this bullshit law and whether it is legal or not makes me angry. The only thing that matters is if it is in accordance with the constitution. I don't know about you, but if any law ever goes against the constitution, it is automatically bullshit, there is no waiting for the Supreme Court to tell me so. I will not just give up and say "You know what, I don't expect privacy or justice anymore, we can just let legislature trample the constitution and let the FBI do whatever the fuck it wants." No fucking way.

Quote:but don't fucking make false claims.

The NSA actions are legal based on the bat shit crazy rules the legislation uses. Although this is true, those actions are still bullshit, end of story. Happy?

Nah the old ones be right yet again.

See the world is a far shittier and more inefficient place than you can possibly understand. Nothing runs the way it should in practice...

How to make a congress - Mix 2 parts tea party nutbag with a 3 parts career politician looking to make it big in retirement, 2 parts geriatric incumbent and 1 part rational good intentioned human being, pour into a highball glass over a generous portion of money, garnish with filibuster and serve.

Social security. Not for you, sorry.
Upward Mobility. Not likely

If you want to get into illegal, immoral and awful stuff the government has done I could fill posts and posts. Start with the colonies and work your way to Iraq, Afghanistan, The Patriot Act, Citizens United and all the current garbage. If you want to take the red pill read 'A Peoples History of the United States' by Howard Zinn. They even made a graphic novel out of it if you just want a cliffnotes understanding.

Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2013, 10:50 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 10:43 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Eventually, the law will be allowed to expire and it will then become moot.

I wouldn't count on that happening we are now at 12 years and counting and I don't see any rush by either party to remove that act. The problem is the general malaise of the public to things like this. The masses don't care or don't know so there is no impulse to act.

I actually remain more hopeful that will happen than it will be struck down as being illegal.

But overall I do agree with you.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 10:43 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Eventually, the law will be allowed to expire and it will then become moot.

I wouldn't count on that happening we are now at 12 years and counting and I don't see any rush by either party to remove that act. The problem is the general malaise of the public to things like this. The masses don't care or don't know so there is no impulse to act.

That is exactly the imbalance that Snowden was trying to counter act, whether he did it properly is irrelevant. When Obama was running for office in 2007 he sounded pretty convincing that he would do away with all that crap but no, he turned out to be a liar not only leaving it in but expanding it. I'd imagine that people were pretty sure the issue was solved until this leaking of document stuff started happening. Even though activists try to inform the public, most seem to be non-responsive. Most seem content to just live disconnected to politics figuring that it will work itself out, or they just plain don't care. This is the view of every adult that I live around. These are the kinds of reasons why the Patriot Act and others like it can get passed without problem in the first place, the public doesn't give a shit.

[Image: g-HitchensThinkSelf.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2013, 10:56 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:50 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 10:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I wouldn't count on that happening we are now at 12 years and counting and I don't see any rush by either party to remove that act. The problem is the general malaise of the public to things like this. The masses don't care or don't know so there is no impulse to act.

I actually remain more hopeful that will happen than it will be struck down as being illegal.

But overall I do agree with you.

Why do you want it to expire? Why not get rid of stuff like that once and for all?

[Image: g-HitchensThinkSelf.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2013, 11:02 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:44 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 10:33 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well now that thats out of the way we can move on to the morality of the spy game and how you would fix it.

Does Prism represent a good or a bad thing? A far more interesting topic than one Edward Snowden. I can see it's usefulness in the current Geopolitical landscape but I can also see how it could be abused (granted not on the scale that you suggest I don't think it's possible for every piece of data to be viewed so it is always limited to keywords and phrases) Really for me the troubling thing is the rubberstamp warrants. Never refusing a warrant makes it pointless to require one. Change this and I'm ok with Prism staying the way it is now.

I think it is a bad thing. Someone has to figure out how to provide all promised rights to the one in question while allowing them a lawyer in a court first. Then, in this court it must be proven that they are sufficiently suspected of a crime or future crime. This being done, we have to figure out how to not scare them into being super careful in their communication methods. The day all this is done is the day it will be a good thing. In all cases, there cannot be any infringes on rights to anyone no matter how suspected they are. I realize that this will probably never happen but I would really like the government to be more sneaky if they want to break the law.

Do you know how warrants work? I'm not being sarcastic here I just don't think they work how you think they do. Your lawyer is never present when one is issued. The main difference between a public warrant and a private one is if it is entered into the public record not how the court works. To obtain a warrant all the police (or FBI CIA NSA etc) need to do is show probable cause to a judge (any judge in the district) the Judge doesn't even need to be actively sitting in court (in fact most of the time they are not) they just need to sign the warrant. Now for normal Warrants different Judges have different levels of evidence necessary to issue a warrant (it is very much an old boys club) but even they are not 100%. That is the problem with the rubber stamp not that it is kept classified, the fact that the warrants are never even challenged by the judges.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
27-07-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 10:47 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 10:29 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Umm... I don't expect this to happen. I don't understand why this is so controversial, when I say the pledge of allegiance "liberty and justice for all" I expect that to happen, since it is backed by the Bill of Rights. Arguing over the technicalities of this bullshit law and whether it is legal or not makes me angry. The only thing that matters is if it is in accordance with the constitution. I don't know about you, but if any law ever goes against the constitution, it is automatically bullshit, there is no waiting for the Supreme Court to tell me so. I will not just give up and say "You know what, I don't expect privacy or justice anymore, we can just let legislature trample the constitution and let the FBI do whatever the fuck it wants." No fucking way.


The NSA actions are legal based on the bat shit crazy rules the legislation uses. Although this is true, those actions are still bullshit, end of story. Happy?

Nah the old ones be right yet again.

See the world is a far shittier and more inefficient place than you can possibly understand. Nothing runs the way it should in practice...

How to make a congress - Mix 2 parts tea party nutbag with a 3 parts career politician looking to make it big in retirement, 2 parts geriatric incumbent and 1 part rational good intentioned human being, pour into a highball glass over a generous portion of money, garnish with filibuster and serve.

Social security. Not for you, sorry.
Upward Mobility. Not likely

You want to take the red pill read 'A Peoples History of the United States' by Howard Zinn. They even made a graphic novel out of it if you just want a cliffnotes understanding.

I know that our congress is fucked to bits, but that still isn't a reason to give up on what we want it to be is it? I know that most congressmen are selfish bastards only looking out for themselves but that is no reason to throw our hands up and say the ideal is impossible. I'm not a little kid totally naive to all the ways of the world, I know it is shitty out there, I just think we atheists need to do our best to make it a better place because we all know no one else will. I want to be part of the solution not part of the problem, call me naive if you wish.

[Image: g-HitchensThinkSelf.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-07-2013, 11:08 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 09:44 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Let's not forget that this kid is only a year younger (possibly less) than me.

If you want to make a big deal about his age, and criticize him for it, you need to know that I think that pointing out age is bullshit.

I don't really appreciate how some of you people point at him being young, and then using it to insult him. Mostly because I don't see age as the problem, I see lack of experience, and lack of insight and information as the key factors.

And if you say something that I feel is due to your youth, I have no issue telling you so -- and like elegant atheist, I won't hold it against you. Enjoy it, because the built in youth excuse expires with age Tongue


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Momsurroundedbyboys's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: