Snowden Situation
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-07-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:11 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 11:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  To be completely honest I don't feel as though meta data collection is wrong in and of itself. To bury our heads in the sand completely is just foolish and since what you're doing online is not by definition private (standard rule here is the internet is a public forum) then yes activity online can be monitored. Now I do hold that communication should be privileged and require a warrant to see what was said (IE: you can see there was an email exchange between your suspected terrorists but to read said emails you must get a probable cause warrant)

This is really no different than the RICO Act statues, it is just a wider focus. No one complains about how RICO is infringing on freedom because it is used to target people seen as other and outside the law.

I much prefer softer anti-terrorist methods like Prism to ineffective shows of force like the Afghan war and TSA. Good Police work and data mining can stop terrorists before they can act shows of force are nothing more than that. So if the options are do nothing and let national security fall away, go full on police state and expand TSA, or have the information agencies trying to track terrorists through non-interventionist data mining and police work, I'm taking option 3 every time. It is not a solution in a vacuum however and our foreign policy must also be brought into play here (something that the current administration has had mixed success with thought lightyears better than the previous one)

Quote: have the information agencies trying to track terrorists through non-interventionist data mining and police work

As long as this doesn't infringe on the civil liberties of the people in question this is fine. Warrants that are met with a good amount of evidence which can be shown in an open court at one time or another I have no problem with.

Quote:the options are do nothing and let national security fall away

This doesn't make much sense to me. Terrorists will be terrorists and there is not very much we can do to stop them, because that is just the world we live in. At no time in public could you be 100% safe from an attack, we see this is Israel all the time with the boys and the bombs strapped to their chests. Once we turn into a country that gets so paranoid about potential terrorist attacks that we give up our freedom is when I get worried, because after that we have nothing left. Once you give up your freedom there is no turning back and the future probably doesn't look to bright when that happens.

People are going to murder people regardless thats just the world we live in why have laws and police to stop them...

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-07-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:16 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 12:11 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  As long as this doesn't infringe on the civil liberties of the people in question this is fine. Warrants that are met with a good amount of evidence which can be shown in an open court at one time or another I have no problem with.


This doesn't make much sense to me. Terrorists will be terrorists and there is not very much we can do to stop them, because that is just the world we live in. At no time in public could you be 100% safe from an attack, we see this is Israel all the time with the boys and the bombs strapped to their chests. Once we turn into a country that gets so paranoid about potential terrorist attacks that we give up our freedom is when I get worried, because after that we have nothing left. Once you give up your freedom there is no turning back and the future probably doesn't look to bright when that happens.

People are going to murder people regardless thats just the world we live in why have laws and police to stop them...

We don't spy on all the citizens whether we have reason to or not in order to see if someone will murder a person, that's the difference. This isn't the Minority Report.

[Image: g-HitchensThinkSelf.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-07-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
Elegant, I agree. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-07-2013, 12:33 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:32 PM)sandman Wrote:  Elegant, I agree. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

Wow that's an awesome quote and that is exactly how I feel. Thanks Big Grin

[Image: g-HitchensThinkSelf.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-07-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:18 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 12:16 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  People are going to murder people regardless thats just the world we live in why have laws and police to stop them...

We don't spy on all the citizens whether we have reason to or not in order to see if someone will murder a person, that's the difference. This isn't the Minority Report.

We do monitor public areas however and as I said the Internet is a public forum.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-07-2013, 12:35 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 12:18 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  We don't spy on all the citizens whether we have reason to or not in order to see if someone will murder a person, that's the difference. This isn't the Minority Report.

We do monitor public areas however and as I said the Internet is a public forum.

I do not count email as a public forum. The Internet is way to big to be classified as anything so general and vague.

[Image: g-HitchensThinkSelf.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-07-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:32 PM)sandman Wrote:  Elegant, I agree. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin




(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Revenant77x's post
28-07-2013, 12:43 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:35 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 12:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  We do monitor public areas however and as I said the Internet is a public forum.

I do not count email as a public forum. The Internet is way to big to be classified as anything so general and vague.

Go reread my post about RICO, I mentioned emails being privileged.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-07-2013, 12:48 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2013 12:54 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:38 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 12:32 PM)sandman Wrote:  Elegant, I agree. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin




I don't the quote is 'stupid' per say...I think that we should be saying it to ourselves often....but I agree with Bill we live in a modern world and not only is the threat greater but we have the ability to implement safety valves and controls and accurately track and enforce these rules and if we do that we can have our cake and eat it to.

It shouldn't be:

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

It should be:

"Those who would fail to account for liberty in assuring their safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

If anything the last decade and 1/2 has taught us that if we don't actively set forth to sanction, regulate and govern an organization like the NSA one will spring up undetected and do whatever it pleases regardless. Better we support and monitor a system that solely catches mass murders than leave a vacuum for for a system that catches mass murders, rigs elections, black mails citizens, knows who I'm ****ing, what I'm smoking and issues rubber stamp warrants against anyone and everyone.

Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ridethespiral's post
28-07-2013, 12:48 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:38 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 12:32 PM)sandman Wrote:  Elegant, I agree. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin




You can try and forfeit your essential liberties all you want but like I said, none of my "essential liberties" are being forfeited any time soon. No one is allowed to look through my email, phone records, or anything else personal on the off chance that there is something about a "suitcase" nuke. The Patriot Act is bullshit and it should be repealed. Btw, stopping at a red light is not forfeiting an "essential" liberty. Essential liberties are things like unconditional privacy in personal matters, which the Patriot Act does not give me.

[Image: g-HitchensThinkSelf.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: