Snowden Situation
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28-07-2013, 12:49 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:05 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 11:08 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And if you say something that I feel is due to your youth, I have no issue telling you so -- and like elegant atheist, I won't hold it against you. Enjoy it, because the built in youth excuse expires with age Tongue

Youth is a shit-poor excuse. I would rather not have people think I am less than them just because I am years younger.

Nor do I like people patronizing me or giving me "an excuse."

I'm sorry that I offended you. I hope eventually you can forgive me for that.


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28-07-2013, 01:01 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 12:48 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 12:38 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  


You can try and forfeit your essential liberties all you want but like I said, none of my "essential liberties" are being forfeited any time soon. No one is allowed to look through my email, phone records, or anything else personal on the off chance that there is something about a "suitcase" nuke. The Patriot Act is bullshit and it should be repealed. Btw, stopping at a red light is not forfeiting an "essential" liberty. Essential liberties are things like unconditional privacy in personal matters, which the Patriot Act does not give me.

Point of order. Even in the pre-9-11 world there was little expectation of total privacy. If you send an email, you ISP is totally within its rights to read your email, with or without just cause. Search engines store your search parameters. If you throw something away -- it becomes fair game.

If you talk to a friend in a public place about anything -- you have given up the right to privacy. If you make a phone call the number you call is stored.

If you are suspected of perpetrating a crime against other people and the authorities discover it -- they have probable cause to watch your home, listen in to your phone conversations etc. All these things existed before 9-11 and the patriot act.


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28-07-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 12:48 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  You can try and forfeit your essential liberties all you want but like I said, none of my "essential liberties" are being forfeited any time soon. No one is allowed to look through my email, phone records, or anything else personal on the off chance that there is something about a "suitcase" nuke. The Patriot Act is bullshit and it should be repealed. Btw, stopping at a red light is not forfeiting an "essential" liberty. Essential liberties are things like unconditional privacy in personal matters, which the Patriot Act does not give me.

Point of order. Even in the pre-9-11 world there was little expectation of total privacy. If you send an email, you ISP is totally within its rights to read your email, with or without just cause. Search engines store your search parameters. If you throw something away -- it becomes fair game.

If you talk to a friend in a public place about anything -- you have given up the right to privacy. If you make a phone call the number you call is stored.

If you are suspected of perpetrating a crime against other people and the authorities discover it -- they have probable cause to watch your home, listen in to your phone conversations etc. All these things existed before 9-11 and the patriot act.

I don't care if they existed or not I am opposed to them. No one should be reading my files without my permission like that ISP stuff. My phone calls should not be stored without a legitimate warrant. Nothing should be done like this without a legitimate warrant. It doesn't matter if it has been like this for 100 years I don't want people spying on me without a just warrant. Is that too much to ask?

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28-07-2013, 01:19 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:06 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Point of order. Even in the pre-9-11 world there was little expectation of total privacy. If you send an email, you ISP is totally within its rights to read your email, with or without just cause. Search engines store your search parameters. If you throw something away -- it becomes fair game.

If you talk to a friend in a public place about anything -- you have given up the right to privacy. If you make a phone call the number you call is stored.

If you are suspected of perpetrating a crime against other people and the authorities discover it -- they have probable cause to watch your home, listen in to your phone conversations etc. All these things existed before 9-11 and the patriot act.

I don't care if they existed or not I am opposed to them. No one should be reading my files without my permission like that ISP stuff. My phone calls should not be stored without a legitimate warrant. Nothing should be done like this without a legitimate warrant. It doesn't matter if it has been like this for 100 years I don't want people spying on me without a just warrant. Is that too much to ask?

It's implied consent. When you apply for a drivers license in the US, the act of applying means that you will give a breath test if suspected of driving under the influence. When you sign up with an ISP, it's implied consent. When you get a phone, you're agreeing to their terms of service and giving consent. If you apply for a bank account, credit card, buy a home...They will check your background, they will ask for proof of your home address etc.

You give your consent to do this because you're asking for the service.


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28-07-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:19 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:06 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  I don't care if they existed or not I am opposed to them. No one should be reading my files without my permission like that ISP stuff. My phone calls should not be stored without a legitimate warrant. Nothing should be done like this without a legitimate warrant. It doesn't matter if it has been like this for 100 years I don't want people spying on me without a just warrant. Is that too much to ask?

It's implied consent. When you apply for a drivers license in the US, the act of applying means that you will give a breath test if suspected of driving under the influence. When you sign up with an ISP, it's implied consent. When you get a phone, you're agreeing to their terms of service and giving consent. If you apply for a bank account, credit card, buy a home...They will check your background, they will ask for proof of your home address etc.

You give your consent to do this because you're asking for the service.

I give no consent for the government to look through my shit, and it's sure as hell not implied that they can do it. They can have my background check all they want but they cannot intercept my emails and phone calls and listen/read them. This is not eastern Germany and we do not have secret police. Why are you accepting this kind of behavior? If there is another bullshit law that allows that kind of shit then I oppose it just as much as the Patriot Act.

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28-07-2013, 01:39 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2013 01:43 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:25 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:19 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  It's implied consent. When you apply for a drivers license in the US, the act of applying means that you will give a breath test if suspected of driving under the influence. When you sign up with an ISP, it's implied consent. When you get a phone, you're agreeing to their terms of service and giving consent. If you apply for a bank account, credit card, buy a home...They will check your background, they will ask for proof of your home address etc.

You give your consent to do this because you're asking for the service.

I give no consent for the government to look through my shit, and it's sure as hell not implied that they can do it. They can have my background check all they want but they cannot intercept my emails and phone calls and listen/read them. This is not eastern Germany and we do not have secret police. Why are you accepting this kind of behavior? If there is another bullshit law that allows that kind of shit then I oppose it just as much as the Patriot Act.

Then you'll never rent a place to live, have a bank account, a job, buy a car get a drivers license, have a phone etc. sure you can get those throwaway phones and destroy it after use so no one knows who you call...but how will you pay for it? You'll never have Internet access -- because even Starbucks (or any place who offers free wifi), the implied concent rules come into effect. You can go to a public library in some areas and use their computers. Don't fill out a census because those are stored forever too (of course the federal government will have a problem with that).

Even video game consoles that require email, like play station network -- stores information.

I'm not talking about doing anything nefarious. If you do something illegal, then police are required to obtain a warrant to look at your phone records -- you've already agreed to that by accepting their service -- just like google, your computer everything stores information about you. You give up any expectation of privacy when you are suspected of breaking the law. Those things can also be used to exclude you as a suspect.


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28-07-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:39 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:25 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  I give no consent for the government to look through my shit, and it's sure as hell not implied that they can do it. They can have my background check all they want but they cannot intercept my emails and phone calls and listen/read them. This is not eastern Germany and we do not have secret police. Why are you accepting this kind of behavior? If there is another bullshit law that allows that kind of shit then I oppose it just as much as the Patriot Act.

Then you'll never rent a place to live, have a bank account, a job, buy a car get a drivers license, have a phone etc. sure you can get those throwaway phones and destroy it after use so no one knows who you call...but how will you pay for it? You'll never have Internet access -- because even Starbucks (or any place who offers free wifi), the implied concent rules come into effect. You can go to a public library in some areas and use their computers. Don't fill out a census because those are stored forever too (of course the federal government will have a problem with that).

Even video game consoles that require email, like play station network -- stores information.

I'm not talking about doing anything nefarious. If you do something illegal, then police are required to obtain a warrant to look at your phone records -- you've already agreed to that by accepting their service.

They can have my email address but there is no way I am letting them read my messages. Does this only sound crazy to me or am I the crazy one for wanting a bit of privacy?

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28-07-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:43 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:39 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Then you'll never rent a place to live, have a bank account, a job, buy a car get a drivers license, have a phone etc. sure you can get those throwaway phones and destroy it after use so no one knows who you call...but how will you pay for it? You'll never have Internet access -- because even Starbucks (or any place who offers free wifi), the implied concent rules come into effect. You can go to a public library in some areas and use their computers. Don't fill out a census because those are stored forever too (of course the federal government will have a problem with that).

Even video game consoles that require email, like play station network -- stores information.

I'm not talking about doing anything nefarious. If you do something illegal, then police are required to obtain a warrant to look at your phone records -- you've already agreed to that by accepting their service.

They can have my email address but there is no way I am letting them read my messages. Does this only sound crazy to me or am I the crazy one for wanting a bit of privacy?

If you suspected of breaking the law, law enforcement, the government whoever has the complete right to do what's needed. They will even read your text messages, emails everything phone records, dig through your garbage. If its important enough they will even dig through landfills.

They will search your credit, get information about your purchases...

By getting an email address, you are agreeing to a terms of service and those terms likely include that if law enforcement asks, all your information will be handed over.


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28-07-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:50 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:43 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  They can have my email address but there is no way I am letting them read my messages. Does this only sound crazy to me or am I the crazy one for wanting a bit of privacy?

If you suspected of breaking the law, law enforcement, the government whoever has the complete right to do what's needed. They will even read your text messages, emails everything phone records, dig through your garbage. If its important enough they will even dig through landfills.

They will search your credit, get information about your purchases...

By getting an email address, you are agreeing to a terms of service and those terms likely include that if law enforcement asks, all your information will be handed over.

That's the thing though, through the FISA court there needs not be any good evidence for suspicion for them to hand over all that stuff.

Why are you patronizing me and trying to tell me how a normal warrant works?
What I am trying to tell you is that the FISA warrants are not normal or right and should not be tolerated.

The situation you are citing is one in which I have been sufficiently suspected of an impending crime. There the warrant would be justified in a normal court. The situation in the Patriot Act is where the FBI can ask for any random records from anyone whether it be by National Security Letter or secret warrant and they are given to them. All that crap is what I am opposing, not everyday criminal warrants.

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28-07-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
Is this shit still going on? I thought we had come to an agreement on the issue.

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