Snowden Situation
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28-07-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:12 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Is this shit still going on? I thought we had come to an agreement on the issue.

Just answer this for me, can or cannot the government look through all my emails and phone texts and calls without me knowing under the authority of a bogus warrant?

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28-07-2013, 02:18 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 01:58 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:50 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  If you suspected of breaking the law, law enforcement, the government whoever has the complete right to do what's needed. They will even read your text messages, emails everything phone records, dig through your garbage. If its important enough they will even dig through landfills.

They will search your credit, get information about your purchases...

By getting an email address, you are agreeing to a terms of service and those terms likely include that if law enforcement asks, all your information will be handed over.

That's the thing though, through the FISA court there needs not be any good evidence for suspicion for them to hand over all that stuff.

Why are you patronizing me and trying to tell me how a normal warrant works?
What I am trying to tell you is that the FISA warrants are not normal or right and should not be tolerated.

The situation you are citing is one in which I have been sufficiently suspected of an impending crime. There the warrant would be justified in a normal court. The situation in the Patriot Act is where the FBI can ask for any random records from anyone whether it be by National Security Letter or secret warrant and they are given to them. All that crap is what I am opposing, not everyday criminal warrants.

I understand that. However the point you are missing is that by taking any and all services you are offering concent. If the NSA wants to read my emails I don't really give two shits. There is no real right privacy -- except maybe between a lawyer snd client. All other so-called privacy rights are an illusion.

The supreme court has upheld this time and again. It's legal. Period. You might not agree to it but it's the law. If you want everything you do or say to be completely private, don't use Internet -- don't get a phone -- live your life completely off the grid -- don't ever get a job -- I guess bartering services is ok but don't leave a paper trail. That's about the only way to ensure your "freedoms" aren't trounced upon.


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28-07-2013, 02:23 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:18 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:58 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  That's the thing though, through the FISA court there needs not be any good evidence for suspicion for them to hand over all that stuff.

Why are you patronizing me and trying to tell me how a normal warrant works?
What I am trying to tell you is that the FISA warrants are not normal or right and should not be tolerated.

The situation you are citing is one in which I have been sufficiently suspected of an impending crime. There the warrant would be justified in a normal court. The situation in the Patriot Act is where the FBI can ask for any random records from anyone whether it be by National Security Letter or secret warrant and they are given to them. All that crap is what I am opposing, not everyday criminal warrants.

I understand that. However the point you are missing is that by taking any and all services you are offering concent. If the NSA wants to read my emails I don't really give two shits. There is no real right privacy -- except maybe between a lawyer snd client. All other so-called privacy rights are an illusion.

The supreme court has upheld this time and again. It's legal. Period. You might not agree to it but it's the law. If you want everything you do or say to be completely private, don't use Internet -- don't get a phone -- live your life completely off the grid -- don't ever get a job -- I guess bartering services is ok but don't leave a paper trail. That's about the only way to ensure your "freedoms" aren't trounced upon.

So you're saying that the rights laid out in the constitution are just illusions now? If that's the case I have a long road of work ahead of me.

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28-07-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:12 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Is this shit still going on? I thought we had come to an agreement on the issue.

Inelegant_Atheist doesn't seem to understand the world as much as he thinks he does. Drinking Beverage

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28-07-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:24 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 02:12 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Is this shit still going on? I thought we had come to an agreement on the issue.

Inelegant_Atheist doesn't seem to understand the world as much as he thinks he does. Drinking Beverage

I understand the world where I have a right to privacy and freedom. You can attack me all you want but I don't give a shit about you or your so called "facts." You can fuck off for all I care buddy.

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28-07-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:23 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 02:18 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I understand that. However the point you are missing is that by taking any and all services you are offering concent. If the NSA wants to read my emails I don't really give two shits. There is no real right privacy -- except maybe between a lawyer snd client. All other so-called privacy rights are an illusion.

The supreme court has upheld this time and again. It's legal. Period. You might not agree to it but it's the law. If you want everything you do or say to be completely private, don't use Internet -- don't get a phone -- live your life completely off the grid -- don't ever get a job -- I guess bartering services is ok but don't leave a paper trail. That's about the only way to ensure your "freedoms" aren't trounced upon.

So you're saying that the rights laid out in the constitution are just illusions now? If that's the case I have a long road of work ahead of me.

Most of them are -- and really always have been. I can't scream fire in crowded theater and claim my freedom of speech has been violated.

There are always exceptions. As I said earler you want total freedom from having your information being looked at -- then go live in the mountains -- off grid. You can't change it. You have to work within the system as it exists.

I think I've said enough on this topic.


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28-07-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:39 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 02:23 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  So you're saying that the rights laid out in the constitution are just illusions now? If that's the case I have a long road of work ahead of me.

Most of them are -- and really always have been. I can't scream fire in crowded theater and claim my freedom of speech has been violated.

There are always exceptions. As I said earler you want total freedom from having your information being looked at -- then go live in the mountains -- off grid. You can't change it. You have to work within the system as it exists.

I think I've said enough on this topic.

Living in the mountains sounds awesome actually, as long as I can bring this computer. I see what you mean about the system, I just think it needs to be reformed not just dealt with. Maybe I can't change the system but I will sure as hell try to.

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28-07-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:43 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Living in the mountains sounds awesome actually, as long as I can bring this computer. I see what you mean about the system, I just think it needs to be reformed not just dealt with. Maybe I can't change the system but I will sure as hell try to.

And you now not off the grid. Implied consent has strong legal precedent stretching back beyond even the formation of this country (it is based in british common law as is much of our legal system) and every time you agree to terms and services you have given consent for law enforcement to be able to subpoena your information.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-07-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:51 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 02:43 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Living in the mountains sounds awesome actually, as long as I can bring this computer. I see what you mean about the system, I just think it needs to be reformed not just dealt with. Maybe I can't change the system but I will sure as hell try to.

And you now not off the grid. Implied consent has strong legal precedent stretching back beyond even the formation of this country (it is based in british common law as is much of our legal system) and every time you agree to terms and services you have given consent for law enforcement to be able to subpoena your information.

I know that wouldn't be even close to off the grid but if you're not on the grid then does it really matter what you do?

I understand the implied consent thing based on criminal warrants. I am saying that this should not be used for the Patriot Act or NSA spying on citizens, call it controversial all you want.

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28-07-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 02:56 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 02:51 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  And you now not off the grid. Implied consent has strong legal precedent stretching back beyond even the formation of this country (it is based in british common law as is much of our legal system) and every time you agree to terms and services you have given consent for law enforcement to be able to subpoena your information.

I know that wouldn't be even close to off the grid but if you're not on the grid then does it really matter what you do?

I understand the implied consent thing based on criminal warrants. I am saying that this should not be used for the Patriot Act or NSA spying on citizens, call it controversial all you want.

What we are trying to explain is even if you shredded the Patriot Act and Disbanded the NSA you would still have your information available to law enforcement simple through probable cause warrants (those FISA courts just speed up the process) and what you are arguing is not even possible in the current legal framework. It was never intended by the founders in the constitution for you to be able to have complete and total anonymity.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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