Snowden Situation
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29-07-2013, 03:56 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:48 AM)I and I Wrote:  Oh...... Still no details as to what he released that was classified?


Carry on

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Catego...program%29

You'll notice in the top left and bottom right of most slides the phrase "Top Secret."

And also:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interact...ourt-order

Assorted stories in The Guardian, Bloomberg, Der Spiegel, others, refer to documents they were shown, but did not reprint.

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29-07-2013, 08:52 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:58 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:02 AM)eksyte Wrote:  And you're OK with that?

I don't think anyone is OK with it. I just think that we are arguing that the government has the legal right to do what they are doing right now.

And we are arguing that that still doesn't make it okay.

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29-07-2013, 09:16 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(28-07-2013 03:27 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 10:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  The House never impeached Nixon. Didn't happen.

The House Judiciary Committee held hearings and voted to recommend impeachment.

Thank you for establishing what I already admitted to being wrong about. Dodgy

You're welcome. Thumbsup

Glad I could help. Big Grin

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29-07-2013, 01:28 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 08:52 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:58 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I don't think anyone is OK with it. I just think that we are arguing that the government has the legal right to do what they are doing right now.

And we are arguing that that still doesn't make it okay.

Ok in what sense? The government's actions are legal. Are you talking about morally? Because that's a whole new ball game.

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29-07-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:28 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 08:52 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  And we are arguing that that still doesn't make it okay.

Ok in what sense? The government's actions are legal. Are you talking about morally? Because that's a whole new ball game.

I would argue that legality does not necessarily justify anything. If the government wants to spy on the public it does not matter at all if it is legal, it is still the same amount of bullshit as if it there wasn't a Patriot Act. I don't know about you but I am talking about my opinion of the law, and that is a moral perspective.

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29-07-2013, 01:33 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:31 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:28 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Ok in what sense? The government's actions are legal. Are you talking about morally? Because that's a whole new ball game.

I would argue that legality does not necessarily justify anything. If the government wants to spy on the public it does not matter at all if it is legal, it is still the same amount of bullshit as if it there wasn't a Patriot Act. I don't know about you but I am talking about my opinion of the law, and that is a moral perspective.

Again what is your alternative and why?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-07-2013, 01:38 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:33 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:31 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  I would argue that legality does not necessarily justify anything. If the government wants to spy on the public it does not matter at all if it is legal, it is still the same amount of bullshit as if it there wasn't a Patriot Act. I don't know about you but I am talking about my opinion of the law, and that is a moral perspective.

Again what is your alternative and why?

My alternative is to not have any of it obviously and the reason is that I still believe in the civil rights laid out in the constitution. As I said before, this spying will not stop any terrorists from trying their stuff in the long run, even if some of them get caught. Meanwhile the spying causes problems for the general public that it is trying to protect. My opinion is that terrorist hunting should never be able to trounce all over the constitution of this country.

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29-07-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:31 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:28 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Ok in what sense? The government's actions are legal. Are you talking about morally? Because that's a whole new ball game.

I would argue that legality does not necessarily justify anything. If the government wants to spy on the public it does not matter at all if it is legal, it is still the same amount of bullshit as if it there wasn't a Patriot Act. I don't know about you but I am talking about my opinion of the law, and that is a moral perspective.

I'm sorry, but your morality is irrelevant to the law. If the Government wants to spy on you via the Internet (a public forum.) and there are laws in place to do exactly that, they will. Why? Because they value security over privacy. They have no rights to spy on you in your house, and they have no rights to do what they do on private property.

However, the Internet is not private, it is publicly maintained, and everything you do is catalogued, it has to be for the Internet to run.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think you should have the right to privacy when you are walking down the Main Street of your town?

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29-07-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:38 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:33 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Again what is your alternative and why?

My alternative is to not have any of it obviously and the reason is that I still believe in the civil rights laid out in the constitution. As I said before, this spying will not stop any terrorists from trying their stuff in the long run, even if some of them get caught. Meanwhile the spying causes problems for the general public that it is trying to protect. My opinion is that terrorist hunting should never be able to trounce all over the constitution of this country.

Again you have assumed there is privacy where there is none. Most of your objection comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of both the law and the nature of the internet. Of note is the fact you would ignore a major problem for the illusion of privacy. As I told you in our correspondence your ISP has access to everything you do online and since you are using their service it is technically their information legally yet you do not rail against the corporate machine having this information. Frankley of the two I trust the government far more than I do corporations at least the government is responsible to it's citizenry corporations are only accountable to themselves.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-07-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:31 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  I would argue that legality does not necessarily justify anything. If the government wants to spy on the public it does not matter at all if it is legal, it is still the same amount of bullshit as if it there wasn't a Patriot Act. I don't know about you but I am talking about my opinion of the law, and that is a moral perspective.

I'm sorry, but your morality is irrelevant to the law. If the Government wants to spy on you via the Internet (a public forum.) and there are laws in place to do exactly that, they will. Why? Because they value security over privacy. They have no rights to spy on you in your house, and they have no rights to do what they do on private property.

However, the Internet is not private, it is publicly maintained, and everything you do is catalogued, it has to be for the Internet to run.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think you should have the right to privacy when you are walking down the Main Street of your town?

They need warrants to spy on people suspected of a crime, correct? They have no right to decide what they value and do it without any substantial evidence or probable cause. Does this not include the Internet? And no, I do not count secret back room court issued warrants as sufficient.

Yes of course I have the right to privacy whilst walking down the street. The police have no right to search my stuff whilst I am walking anywhere without a warrant that they show to me. In the Patriot Act the person in question is never told the government is looking, which is why I and many others use the word spying. That is totally unethical to anyone who values freedom. The government has obviously overstepped their intended boundaries when acts like the Patriot Act legalize the secretiveness of supposed warrants and never designate who, what, or for how long they are spying.

Quote:the Internet is not private

My email is private and any government agency that wants to see it should be able to show me a court issued warrant that shows me the evidence in which I am expected. That is how it should be and I don't think it is too much to ask.

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