Snowden Situation
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29-07-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:58 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I'm sorry, but your morality is irrelevant to the law. If the Government wants to spy on you via the Internet (a public forum.) and there are laws in place to do exactly that, they will. Why? Because they value security over privacy. They have no rights to spy on you in your house, and they have no rights to do what they do on private property.

However, the Internet is not private, it is publicly maintained, and everything you do is catalogued, it has to be for the Internet to run.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think you should have the right to privacy when you are walking down the Main Street of your town?

They need warrants to spy on people suspected of a crime, correct? They have no right to decide what they value and do it without any substantial evidence or probable cause. Does this not include the Internet? And no, I do not count secret back room court issued warrants as sufficient.

Yes of course I have the right to privacy whilst walking down the street. The police have no right to search my stuff whilst I am walking anywhere without a warrant that they show to me. In the Patriot Act the person in question is never told the government is looking, which is why I and many others use the word spying. That is totally unethical to anyone who values freedom. The government has obviously overstepped their intended boundaries when acts like the Patriot Act legalize the secretiveness of supposed warrants and never designate who, what, or for how long they are spying.

Quote:the Internet is not private

My email is private and any government agency that wants to see it should be able to show me a court issued warrant that shows me the evidence in which I am expected. That is how it should be and I don't think it is too much to ask.

You have no expectation of privacy while in public. That is law.
A police officer can search your person without a warrant if there is probable cause.
I agree that e-mail should be as private as snail mail. However, if you delete an e-mail, that is like throwing a letter in the trash. It's fair game.

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29-07-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:38 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  My alternative is to not have any of it obviously and the reason is that I still believe in the civil rights laid out in the constitution. As I said before, this spying will not stop any terrorists from trying their stuff in the long run, even if some of them get caught. Meanwhile the spying causes problems for the general public that it is trying to protect. My opinion is that terrorist hunting should never be able to trounce all over the constitution of this country.

Again you have assumed there is privacy where there is none. Most of your objection comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of both the law and the nature of the internet. Of note is the fact you would ignore a major problem for the illusion of privacy. As I told you in our correspondence your ISP has access to everything you do online and since you are using their service it is technically their information legally yet you do not rail against the corporate machine having this information. Frankley of the two I trust the government far more than I do corporations at least the government is responsible to it's citizenry corporations are only accountable to themselves.

Quote:Again you have assumed there is privacy where there is none.

There needs to be privacy for US citizens whether you think it is an illusion or not.

Quote:Of note is the fact you would ignore a major problem for the illusion of privacy.

I'm not ignoring a problem I am standing up for the rights of the people. Just because you want to forfeit your freedom, or "illusion of privacy," doesn't mean I have to.

Quote:Frankley of the two I trust the government far more than I do corporations at least the government is responsible to it's citizenry corporations are only accountable to themselves.

Even I, a fifteen year old kid, realizes that the government officials are payed off by the corporations and help them in multiple ways. You can trust whomever you like but don't ask me to give up my freedoms in the name of your misguided war on terrorism, which will never be stopped or even reduced. This will never be done especially if the government can legally spy on us.

I've said enough about this, I feel like I am repeating myself now. It was nice conversing with you, but since one of us values freedom and privacy and one thinks it is an illusion, there is nothing left to talk about.

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29-07-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 02:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  You have no expectation of privacy while in public. That is law.
A police officer can search your person without a warrant if there is probable cause.
I agree that e-mail should be as private as snail mail. However, if you delete an e-mail, that is like throwing a letter in the trash. It's fair game.

It depends on the service provider's user agreement.

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29-07-2013, 02:14 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 02:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:58 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  They need warrants to spy on people suspected of a crime, correct? They have no right to decide what they value and do it without any substantial evidence or probable cause. Does this not include the Internet? And no, I do not count secret back room court issued warrants as sufficient.

Yes of course I have the right to privacy whilst walking down the street. The police have no right to search my stuff whilst I am walking anywhere without a warrant that they show to me. In the Patriot Act the person in question is never told the government is looking, which is why I and many others use the word spying. That is totally unethical to anyone who values freedom. The government has obviously overstepped their intended boundaries when acts like the Patriot Act legalize the secretiveness of supposed warrants and never designate who, what, or for how long they are spying.


My email is private and any government agency that wants to see it should be able to show me a court issued warrant that shows me the evidence in which I am expected. That is how it should be and I don't think it is too much to ask.

You have no expectation of privacy while in public. That is law.
A police officer can search your person without a warrant if there is probable cause.
I agree that e-mail should be as private as snail mail. However, if you delete an e-mail, that is like throwing a letter in the trash. It's fair game.

They may be able to search me, but the key word is probable cause. If they come up with nothing, especially multiple times, don't you think there is a problem? Maybe the law is being abused? Probable cause should be extreme severity or imminent danger, like if a person looks to have a bomb on them, it cannot be used for any random reason, that would be encroaching on privacy and is illegal.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized" That is law.

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29-07-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 02:14 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 02:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  You have no expectation of privacy while in public. That is law.
A police officer can search your person without a warrant if there is probable cause.
I agree that e-mail should be as private as snail mail. However, if you delete an e-mail, that is like throwing a letter in the trash. It's fair game.

They may be able to search me, but the key word is probable cause. If they come up with nothing, especially multiple times, don't you think there is a problem? Maybe the law is being abused? Probable cause should be extreme severity or imminent danger, like if a person looks to have a bomb on them, it cannot be used for any random reason, that would be encroaching on privacy and is illegal.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized" That is law.

Probable cause will be judged after the fact. Police officers are trained, but they are human beings - they make mistakes.

Evidence obtained from a search that is judged illegal is thrown out. That's the best we have been able to come up with.

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29-07-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 01:58 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Yes of course I have the right to privacy whilst walking down the street. The police have no right to search my stuff whilst I am walking anywhere without a warrant that they show to me.
The police can't search your property without a warrent. your emails and your internet usage is not your property. Believe it or not, you have no right to privacy on the street. You can be legally videotaped, photographed and monitored without it being against the law. Why? BECAUSE IT IS ON GODDAMN PUBLIC PROPERTY.The internet works the same exact way.

Quote:In the Patriot Act the person in question is never told the government is looking, which is why I and many others use the word spying. That is totally unethical to anyone who values freedom. The government has obviously overstepped their intended boundaries when acts like the Patriot Act legalize the secretiveness of supposed warrants and never designate who, what, or for how long they are spying

The government doesn't care about your morality.
Quote:
Quote:the Internet is not private

My email is private and any government agency that wants to see it should be able to show me a court issued warrant that shows me the evidence in which I am expected. That is how it should be and I don't think it is too much to ask.

Technically, not even your emails are private. You use an email service to send them out, and in order to use that service, you have to agree to terms and conditions. For your information, terms and conditions are legally binding, and they dictate what happens with your emails and how "private" they really are. When you use a service, you play by their rules, and most of them give the information to the government, and you, by accepting the terms and conditions and USING the service, have given consent for it to be so.

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29-07-2013, 02:23 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 02:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 02:14 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  They may be able to search me, but the key word is probable cause. If they come up with nothing, especially multiple times, don't you think there is a problem? Maybe the law is being abused? Probable cause should be extreme severity or imminent danger, like if a person looks to have a bomb on them, it cannot be used for any random reason, that would be encroaching on privacy and is illegal.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized" That is law.

Probable cause will be judged after the fact. Police officers are trained, but they are human beings - they make mistakes.

Evidence obtained from a search that is judged illegal is thrown out. That's the best we have been able to come up with.

Yes I understand the need for the probable cause law and there is no problem as long as it is not abused. I agree with you that there is nothing better at the moment.

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29-07-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 02:20 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 01:58 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Yes of course I have the right to privacy whilst walking down the street. The police have no right to search my stuff whilst I am walking anywhere without a warrant that they show to me.
The police can't search your property without a warrent. your emails and your internet usage is not your property. Believe it or not, you have no right to privacy on the street. You can be legally videotaped, photographed and monitored without it being against the law. Why? BECAUSE IT IS ON GODDAMN PUBLIC PROPERTY.The internet works the same exact way.

Quote:In the Patriot Act the person in question is never told the government is looking, which is why I and many others use the word spying. That is totally unethical to anyone who values freedom. The government has obviously overstepped their intended boundaries when acts like the Patriot Act legalize the secretiveness of supposed warrants and never designate who, what, or for how long they are spying

The government doesn't care about your morality.
Quote:My email is private and any government agency that wants to see it should be able to show me a court issued warrant that shows me the evidence in which I am expected. That is how it should be and I don't think it is too much to ask.

Technically, not even your emails are private. You use an email service to send them out, and in order to use that service, you have to agree to terms and conditions. For your information, terms and conditions are legally binding, and they dictate what happens with your emails and how "private" they really are. When you use a service, you play by their rules, and most of them give the information to the government, and you, by accepting the terms and conditions and USING the service, have given consent for it to be so.

Why is it that they are able to give it to the government without a warrant? That seems ridiculous to me that just because you use a service, the provider can do whatever it wants with your information. Maybe that's just me, but I like the feeling that my emails are private.

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29-07-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 02:26 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(29-07-2013 02:20 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  The police can't search your property without a warrent. your emails and your internet usage is not your property. Believe it or not, you have no right to privacy on the street. You can be legally videotaped, photographed and monitored without it being against the law. Why? BECAUSE IT IS ON GODDAMN PUBLIC PROPERTY.The internet works the same exact way.


The government doesn't care about your morality.

Technically, not even your emails are private. You use an email service to send them out, and in order to use that service, you have to agree to terms and conditions. For your information, terms and conditions are legally binding, and they dictate what happens with your emails and how "private" they really are. When you use a service, you play by their rules, and most of them give the information to the government, and you, by accepting the terms and conditions and USING the service, have given consent for it to be so.

Why is it that they are able to give it to the government without a warrant? That seems ridiculous to me that just because you use a service, the provider can do whatever it wants with your information. Maybe that's just me, but I like the feeling that my emails are private.

Well, you have to face the reality that they aren't. When you click the "I agree" terms and conditions, you have essentially allowed them to give that information away. I like the feeling of privacy, but I don't argue that it's their even when it's not.

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29-07-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(29-07-2013 02:20 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  You use an email service to send them out, and in order to use that service, you have to agree to terms and conditions. For your information, terms and conditions are legally binding, and they dictate what happens with your emails and how "private" they really are. When you use a service, you play by their rules, and most of them give the information to the government, and you, by accepting the terms and conditions and USING the service, have given consent for it to be so.

Well...

You can't waive your legally guaranteed rights through a service agreement. Illegal clauses cannot be upheld, even if the consumer nominally agrees. That's why a contract specifying payment in firstborn children isn't valid, even if both parties sign off on it.

At least not in Canada. Or most of Europe. I dunno about your crazy country Tongue .

Generally the language is vague enough - compliance with all applicable regulations, or having an obligation to disclose some information at government request, or some such - that service providers' asses are thoroughly covered regardless.

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