Snowden Situation
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27-07-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 12:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The Patriot Act

Good job, you just sited the exact situation that is so stupid and idiotic.

Quote:SEC. 208. DESIGNATION OF JUDGES.
Section 103(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1803(a)) is amended by--

(1) striking `seven district court judges' and inserting `11 district court judges'; and
(2) inserting `of whom no fewer than 3 shall reside within 20 miles of the District of Columbia' after `circuits'.

.....secret court that requires NO due process of law, as seen in the articles below.

The fact that you are supporting these unconstitutional laws shows how much you have given up on freedom and want to live in a fascist state. No rational person could advocate these things unless that was what you wanted.

Again, this act has been found to be unconstitutional: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20999950/ns/us...itutional/

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/webster/090419

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27-07-2013, 04:34 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 04:17 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 12:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The Patriot Act

Good job, you just sited the exact situation that is so stupid and idiotic.

Quote:SEC. 208. DESIGNATION OF JUDGES.
Section 103(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1803(a)) is amended by--

(1) striking `seven district court judges' and inserting `11 district court judges'; and
(2) inserting `of whom no fewer than 3 shall reside within 20 miles of the District of Columbia' after `circuits'.

.....secret court that requires NO due process of law, as seen in the articles below.

The fact that you are supporting these unconstitutional laws shows how much you have given up on freedom and want to live in a fascist state. No rational person could advocate these things unless that was what you wanted.

Again, this act has been found to be unconstitutional: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20999950/ns/us...itutional/

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/webster/090419

The fact that you are so blatantly ignorant to assume that we support these laws simply because we are citing them as proof for the legality of the NSA's actions is absolutely absurd. I suggest you reread our arguments before you assume we are in favor of the NSA's spying on its citizens. We are simply pointing out that Snowden is not the hero you claim him to be.

You are attacking a strawman. Drinking Beverage

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27-07-2013, 04:40 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 04:17 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 12:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The Patriot Act

Good job, you just sited the exact situation that is so stupid and idiotic.

Quote:SEC. 208. DESIGNATION OF JUDGES.
Section 103(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1803(a)) is amended by--

(1) striking `seven district court judges' and inserting `11 district court judges'; and
(2) inserting `of whom no fewer than 3 shall reside within 20 miles of the District of Columbia' after `circuits'.

.....secret court that requires NO due process of law, as seen in the articles below.

The fact that you are supporting these unconstitutional laws shows how much you have given up on freedom and want to live in a fascist state. No rational person could advocate these things unless that was what you wanted.

Again, this act has been found to be unconstitutional: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20999950/ns/us...itutional/

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/webster/090419

Small parts of it have been and I agree it should all be brought before the court and dismantled but until that happens it is the law of the land and so what the NSA was doing was not illegal. Not arguing right or wrong here just legal/illegal. The information they collected and used was obtained under warrants that are still legal so your point about everyone from the President down being involved in a massive conspiracy to defraud is false.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2013, 04:50 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 04:40 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Small parts of it have been and I agree it should all be brought before the court and dismantled but until that happens it is the law of the land and so what the NSA was doing was not illegal. Not arguing right or wrong here just legal/illegal. The information they collected and used was obtained under warrants that are still legal so your point about everyone from the President down being involved in a massive conspiracy to defraud is false.

That argument of "Oh, well it was the law and whatever the law is must go," is ridiculous and surface level.

Quote: Not arguing right or wrong here just legal/illegal.

Stop being a mindless drone and think about if they are right or wrong. Also, the law starts out with the constitution and works its way down. The point is, the congress cannot legislate things that are unconstitutional and if they do it IS NOT law, it is in fact breaking the law. Do yourself a favor and look at the big picture not just reading the illegal law and accounting it as legitimate. The Patriot Act is not legal based on the constitution so it was never actual law. Nothing that is against the constitution needs to be followed by the public at any time, so please don't try and argue that it is legal again after all the times I've refuted it, I'm getting annoyed at having to do it.

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27-07-2013, 04:57 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 04:50 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  That argument of "Oh, well it was the law and whatever the law is must go," is ridiculous and surface level.

Again, that claim has not been made. You are enacting the strawman fallacy.


(27-07-2013 04:50 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Stop being a mindless drone and think about if they are right or wrong. Also, the law starts out with the constitution and works its way down. The point is, the congress cannot legislate things that are unconstitutional and if they do it IS NOT law, it is in fact breaking the law. Do yourself a favor and look at the big picture not just reading the illegal law and accounting it as legitimate. The Patriot Act is not legal based on the constitution so it was never actual law. Nothing that is against the constitution needs to be followed by the public at any time, so please don't try and argue that it is legal again after all the times I've refuted it, I'm getting annoyed at having to do it.

You are looking at this in a false, delusional dichotomy. You need to learn to separate both legality and morality. You previously asserted that what the NSA has done is illegal. Revenant proved that it wasn't. The Supreme Court has not ruled the Patriot Act as unconstitutional, so the law remains legal until otherwise. You seriously have no idea how the U.S political system works.

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27-07-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 04:57 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 04:50 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  That argument of "Oh, well it was the law and whatever the law is must go," is ridiculous and surface level.

Again, that claim has not been made. You are enacting the strawman fallacy.


(27-07-2013 04:50 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Stop being a mindless drone and think about if they are right or wrong. Also, the law starts out with the constitution and works its way down. The point is, the congress cannot legislate things that are unconstitutional and if they do it IS NOT law, it is in fact breaking the law. Do yourself a favor and look at the big picture not just reading the illegal law and accounting it as legitimate. The Patriot Act is not legal based on the constitution so it was never actual law. Nothing that is against the constitution needs to be followed by the public at any time, so please don't try and argue that it is legal again after all the times I've refuted it, I'm getting annoyed at having to do it.

You are looking at this in a false, delusional dichotomy. You need to learn to separate both legality and morality. You previously asserted that what the NSA has done is illegal. Revenant proved that it wasn't. The Supreme Court has not ruled the Patriot Act as unconstitutional, so the law remains legal until otherwise. You seriously have no idea how the U.S political system works.

To me, this is a moral issue. You can throw around your, "It was law so everything they did was justifed," argument around all you want but the point is the government was spying on US citizens. In no world will that ever be legal to me and anyone that says it is has lost my respect. I am asking you to think for yourself if the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. Given the secret court in the act has already said it broke the law let alone how much it obviously does contradict with the constitution, I'd say that was a pretty easy decision don't you think?

If you want to be bullied around by our political system go ahead and wait your whole life for illegal acts like this to be ruled unconstitutional. The point is the public has to stand up and demand these acts are ruled justly in the supreme court or nothing will ever be done. Our US political system doesn't work itself out it needs the public to monitor and maintain it.

Btw, I like how you say that you don't think that law should necessarily be followed if it is unjust, then you argue that I have no argument against you because it was the law and since it has not been ruled unconstitutional I need to follow it......wtf?

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27-07-2013, 05:48 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
Elegant, you keep throwing around the word "Illegal" are you sure you know what it means?

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27-07-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 05:48 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Elegant, you keep throwing around the word "Illegal" are you sure you know what it means?

Yes? Anything that goes against the constitution or the laws that fall into accordance with the constitution that support freedom and privacy.

That's my definition I don't care about any other ones.

No law that has seeped through legislation that has obviously contradicted the constitution, like the Patriot Act, ever has or ever will be followed by me.

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27-07-2013, 05:58 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 05:53 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 05:48 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Elegant, you keep throwing around the word "Illegal" are you sure you know what it means?

Yes? Anything that goes against the constitution or the laws that fall into accordance with the constitution that support freedom and privacy.

That's my definition I don't care about any other ones.

No law that has seeped through legislation that has obviously contradicted the constitution, like the Patriot Act, ever has or ever will be followed by me.

Then you are using the term wrongly. If the Patriot Act is passed, or renewed, then it is LEGAL.

Essentially, what the NSA did IS LEGAL.

When you say its illegal, you are making a claim that isn't true.

Just because its legal, however, doesn't mean its correct.

The NSA did this within the law. What they did was legal.

You are wrong on the legality of the situation.

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27-07-2013, 06:00 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 05:58 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 05:53 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Yes? Anything that goes against the constitution or the laws that fall into accordance with the constitution that support freedom and privacy.

That's my definition I don't care about any other ones.

No law that has seeped through legislation that has obviously contradicted the constitution, like the Patriot Act, ever has or ever will be followed by me.

Then you are using the term wrongly. If the Patriot Act is passed, or renewed, then it is LEGAL.

Essentially, what the NSA did IS LEGAL.

When you say its illegal, you are making a claim that isn't true.

Just because its legal, however, doesn't mean its correct.

The NSA did this within the law. What they did was legal.

You are wrong on the legality of the situation.

Ya, except it's not because it goes against the constitution. I love how you people just disregard the constitution as a formality. If it goes against the constitution it can't be done so no it isn't legal.

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