Snowden Situation
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05-08-2013, 09:32 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 08:27 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 07:50 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  The "my right to vote"/"working within the system" bullshit, you know that is naive as fuck. I hope you know that is a naive view. It's wishful thinking.

You really wouldn't have any thing on a person with a strategy that involved bitching on a forum or having an "armed anarchist revolution". If your way is a better strategy, it isn't better by much. Unless you have more. Do you have more?

And these things (Angry) don't help.

The briefest foray into non-official (IE not viewed from the executive) history shows that every change of any significance in this country was backed by fierce striking, protest and occasionally violence. Civil rights, the 5 day work week, the 8 hour day, safe working conditions, women's suffrage, the end of Vietnam, The New Deal...

I'm not saying we should simply abandon democratic process or advocating an insurrection but I am saying that without major disturbances of the status quo nothing happens at the state level.

Just because past changes were done by major disturbances doesn't mean that they can't/ won't happen with working in the system.

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05-08-2013, 09:53 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 09:32 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 08:27 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  The briefest foray into non-official (IE not viewed from the executive) history shows that every change of any significance in this country was backed by fierce striking, protest and occasionally violence. Civil rights, the 5 day work week, the 8 hour day, safe working conditions, women's suffrage, the end of Vietnam, The New Deal...

I'm not saying we should simply abandon democratic process or advocating an insurrection but I am saying that without major disturbances of the status quo nothing happens at the state level.

Just because past changes were done by major disturbances doesn't mean that they can't/ won't happen with working in the system.

Change happens when a majority of people make it a major concern. If the Pols feel like their jobs are in danger by an issue they will never go against that issue (see gun laws in america). So if you hate what the NSA is doing then by all means start a campaign but ultimately it is the vote of the people that makes a difference. Strikes and riots do not cause change in and of themselves (see Occupy Wall Street) all they can do is raise awareness. This is where Edward Snowden screwed the pooch he made the story more about him that the info he exposed, by trying to come off as James Bond he actually diminished the impact the actual leak had.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-08-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 09:32 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Just because past changes were done by major disturbances doesn't mean that they can't/ won't happen with working in the system.

So I'm not going to say that change on this issue within government without external pressure is impossible...but I'm also not going to say that I can flat out disprove the existence of God either.

The fact of the matter is that congress is a dysfunctional mess now more than ever.

House GOP Votes To Repeal Obamacare For 40th Time

...and history is on my side here, unless some major corporate interest or a major peoples movement backs change in all likely hood there will be no change. The people need to motivate change.

Also, it really can't hurt to make a few signs and have a march or two and it is certainly within ones rights to do so.

The 1st amendment Wrote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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05-08-2013, 10:02 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 09:53 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 09:32 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Just because past changes were done by major disturbances doesn't mean that they can't/ won't happen with working in the system.

Change happens when a majority of people make it a major concern. If the Pols feel like their jobs are in danger by an issue they will never go against that issue (see gun laws in america). So if you hate what the NSA is doing then by all means start a campaign but ultimately it is the vote of the people that makes a difference. Strikes and riots do not cause change in and of themselves (see Occupy Wall Street) all they can do is raise awareness. This is where Edward Snowden screwed the pooch he made the story more about him that the info he exposed, by trying to come off as James Bond he actually diminished the impact the actual leak had.

Ultimately changes are made to legislation yes...but that whole civil unrest step is a vital one, awareness and outrage are necessary for a functioning democracy. If nobody ever got pissed off we'd be working 17 hour days and sleeping at our work stations.

Careful now...did Snowden 'go all James Bond' or did the media 'go all James Bond with Snowden?' I think the jury is out on that one.

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05-08-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 10:02 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 09:53 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Change happens when a majority of people make it a major concern. If the Pols feel like their jobs are in danger by an issue they will never go against that issue (see gun laws in america). So if you hate what the NSA is doing then by all means start a campaign but ultimately it is the vote of the people that makes a difference. Strikes and riots do not cause change in and of themselves (see Occupy Wall Street) all they can do is raise awareness. This is where Edward Snowden screwed the pooch he made the story more about him that the info he exposed, by trying to come off as James Bond he actually diminished the impact the actual leak had.

Ultimately changes are made to legislation yes...but that whole civil unrest step is a vital one, awareness and outrage are necessary for a functioning democracy.

Careful now...did Snowden 'go all James Bond' or did the media 'go all James Bond with Snowden?' I think the jury is out on that one.

No, He made himself a star, the hero of the people the defender of free speech and privacy with his act. Had he done this the legal way then maybe we are having a different discussion but as it is he did more harm than good to trying to change this. The news media made a big show out of it for a while everyone moved on and now don't care (for the majority) a wasted opportunity. Activists who put themselves ahead of the cause are roadblocks to actual progress, see Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and the like.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-08-2013, 10:18 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 10:06 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 10:02 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Ultimately changes are made to legislation yes...but that whole civil unrest step is a vital one, awareness and outrage are necessary for a functioning democracy.

Careful now...did Snowden 'go all James Bond' or did the media 'go all James Bond with Snowden?' I think the jury is out on that one.

No, He made himself a star, the hero of the people the defender of free speech and privacy with his act. Had he done this the legal way then maybe we are having a different discussion but as it is he did more harm than good to trying to change this. The news media made a big show out of it for a while everyone moved on and now don't care (for the majority) a wasted opportunity. Activists who put themselves ahead of the cause are roadblocks to actual progress, see Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and the like.

I know how you feel about it, it was covered somewhere in here before the 20 pages of elegant vs. the world....I just don't agree Big Grin

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05-08-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 10:18 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(05-08-2013 10:06 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No, He made himself a star, the hero of the people the defender of free speech and privacy with his act. Had he done this the legal way then maybe we are having a different discussion but as it is he did more harm than good to trying to change this. The news media made a big show out of it for a while everyone moved on and now don't care (for the majority) a wasted opportunity. Activists who put themselves ahead of the cause are roadblocks to actual progress, see Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and the like.

I know how you feel about it, it was covered somewhere in here before the 20 pages of elegant vs. the world....I just don't agree Big Grin

Was giving a rehash to the tl;dr crowd Big Grin

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-08-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 07:50 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  The "my right to vote"/"working within the system" bullshit, you know that is naive as fuck. I hope you know that is a naive view. It's wishful thinking.

You really wouldn't have any thing on a person with a strategy that involved bitching on a forum or having an "armed anarchist revolution". If your way is a better strategy, it isn't better by much. Unless you have more. Do you have more?

And these things (Angry) don't help.

Civil rights movements have been and generally unite behind a handful of individual speakers. To get things done, one must convince the legislators that the most beneficial thing would be to legalize something or make it illegal. The most recent fight for gay marriage is a prime example.

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05-08-2013, 06:06 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 08:27 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  The briefest foray into non-official (IE not viewed from the executive) history shows that every change of any significance in this country was backed by fierce striking, protest and occasionally violence. Civil rights, the 5 day work week, the 8 hour day, safe working conditions, women's suffrage, the end of Vietnam, The New Deal...

I'm not saying we should simply abandon democratic process or advocating an insurrection but I am saying that without major disturbances of the status quo nothing happens at the state level.

The problem is that there isn't a "democratic" process. Elements that you can label democracy, but our country isn't very democratic, at all.

Being involved politically and having an impact on politics, as well as economic decisions, has a big influence on the uprisings, and the threat of democracy, a threat to power, is the reason for the repression. The reason why the response to social and political awareness is usually people being beaten, people being murdered, people being thrown in prison, rights taken away and/or ignored, etc.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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05-08-2013, 06:29 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(05-08-2013 11:57 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Civil rights movements have been and generally unite behind a handful of individual speakers. To get things done, one must convince the legislators that the most beneficial thing would be to legalize something or make it illegal. The most recent fight for gay marriage is a prime example.

Gay marriage, for example, is a fucking joke. It's a distraction issue, along with: abortion, gun rights, war on religion bullshit. They are used to get people to the polls to help with the real issues-- the economic issues.

You can tell how much politicians and the elite actually give a fuck about gay rights. As soon as the polls turned, there were politicians on that shit in seconds talking about how they magically changed their minds and gays were our equals, brothers and sisters, etc. Some are crazy religious assholes, but the so-called "moderates", "establishment", they weren't worried about whether or not gays were fucking with rings and adopting kids, they were worried about support for their parties.

If the let's vote and convince the legislators with a majority stuffed worked, we would have universal healthcare, we would be spending a lot more on education, the rich would be taxed at way higher rates, our infrastructure would be phenomenal, we would have been without war for a long time, we would have been without economic recession for a long time, people would be working less than 8 hour days with long vacations and etc.

People today are just lucky a lot of battles were already won. Most are happy with their McDonald's and Nike freedom or are apathetic. They just don't have that much of a sense of urgency. Global warming is too far removed, blacks are....well...black, enough people have healthcare already, you likely don't know you are uneducated unless you are educated...plus anti-intellectualism is strong, if you are a happy slave or a house nigger you don't care much, etc.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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