Snowden Situation
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27-07-2013, 06:10 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 06:00 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 05:58 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Then you are using the term wrongly. If the Patriot Act is passed, or renewed, then it is LEGAL.

Essentially, what the NSA did IS LEGAL.

When you say its illegal, you are making a claim that isn't true.

Just because its legal, however, doesn't mean its correct.

The NSA did this within the law. What they did was legal.

You are wrong on the legality of the situation.

Ya, except it's not because it goes against the constitution. I love how you people just disregard the constitution as a formality. If it goes against the constitution it can't be done so no it isn't legal.

No, it is legal, it just shouldn't be.

So you're still fucking wrong.

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27-07-2013, 06:15 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 05:22 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  To me, this is a moral issue. You can throw around your, "It was law so everything they did was justifed," argument around all you want but the point is the government was spying on US citizens. In no world will that ever be legal to me and anyone that says it is has lost my respect. I am asking you to think for yourself if the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. Given the secret court in the act has already said it broke the law let alone how much it obviously does contradict with the constitution, I'd say that was a pretty easy decision don't you think?

Except you didn't argue it as purely a moral issue. You claimed it was illegal. Legality is not subjective. It is either legal or it isn't. You think the Patriot Act is immoral. I do too. You'd be a complete and utter dolt to deny that it is currently legal.

(27-07-2013 05:22 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  If you want to be bullied around by our political system go ahead and wait your whole life for illegal acts like this to be ruled unconstitutional. The point is the public has to stand up and demand these acts are ruled justly in the supreme court or nothing will ever be done. Our US political system doesn't work itself out it needs the public to monitor and maintain it.

The United States is a representative democracy. The people do not directly impact the laws. We vote people in who decide on those laws. If you want to change it, vote for people who will do so. Again, you keep assuming things about my position, and it makes you look like a complete and total idiot.

(27-07-2013 05:22 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Btw, I like how you say that you don't think that law should necessarily be followed if it is unjust, then you argue that I have no argument against you because it was the law and since it has not been ruled unconstitutional I need to follow it......wtf?

I never said it shouldn't be followed. I simply said I disagreed with the morality of the law. I will obey it, but I will also vote for politicians that will hopefully repeal it. That is what your beloved constitution was built around.

(27-07-2013 06:00 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Ya, except it's not because it goes against the constitution. I love how you people just disregard the constitution as a formality. If it goes against the constitution it can't be done so no it isn't legal.

No, the Supreme Court has not ruled it against the constitution. You know about the three different branches of government, their functions included, right?

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27-07-2013, 06:24 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 06:15 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 05:22 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  To me, this is a moral issue. You can throw around your, "It was law so everything they did was justifed," argument around all you want but the point is the government was spying on US citizens. In no world will that ever be legal to me and anyone that says it is has lost my respect. I am asking you to think for yourself if the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. Given the secret court in the act has already said it broke the law let alone how much it obviously does contradict with the constitution, I'd say that was a pretty easy decision don't you think?

Except you didn't argue it as purely a moral issue. You claimed it was illegal. Legality is not subjective. It is either legal or it isn't. You think the Patriot Act is immoral. I do too. You'd be a complete and utter dolt to deny that it is currently legal.

(27-07-2013 05:22 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  If you want to be bullied around by our political system go ahead and wait your whole life for illegal acts like this to be ruled unconstitutional. The point is the public has to stand up and demand these acts are ruled justly in the supreme court or nothing will ever be done. Our US political system doesn't work itself out it needs the public to monitor and maintain it.

The United States is a representative democracy. The people do not directly impact the laws. We vote people in who decide on those laws. If you want to change it, vote for people who will do so. Again, you keep assuming things about my position, and it makes you look like a complete and total idiot.

(27-07-2013 05:22 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Btw, I like how you say that you don't think that law should necessarily be followed if it is unjust, then you argue that I have no argument against you because it was the law and since it has not been ruled unconstitutional I need to follow it......wtf?

I never said it shouldn't be followed. I simply said I disagreed with the morality of the law. I will obey it, but I will also vote for politicians that will hopefully repeal it. That is what your beloved constitution was built around.

(27-07-2013 06:00 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Ya, except it's not because it goes against the constitution. I love how you people just disregard the constitution as a formality. If it goes against the constitution it can't be done so no it isn't legal.

No, the Supreme Court has not ruled it against the constitution. You know about the three different branches of government, their functions included, right?

Nothing that contradicts the constitution can become law in the first place sooooooooo it isn't legal OR moral in any sense. I'm not going to be politically correct and wait my term until the congressman gets reelected like they do every year to take a stance on an illegal legislation issue. You can follow it all you like but I will not.

Talking about the constitution like this, "your beloved constitution" makes me assume things about you that maybe you don't like, but I don't really care. Every US citizen should think of the constitution as the "beloved constitution" and you know why? That single document and its amendments protect our right to privacy, freedom, a trial, and most importantly right to reject unfair legislation.

P.S.- The Patriot Act is not legal, therefore it is illegal. Big Grin

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27-07-2013, 06:29 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 06:24 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 06:15 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Except you didn't argue it as purely a moral issue. You claimed it was illegal. Legality is not subjective. It is either legal or it isn't. You think the Patriot Act is immoral. I do too. You'd be a complete and utter dolt to deny that it is currently legal.


The United States is a representative democracy. The people do not directly impact the laws. We vote people in who decide on those laws. If you want to change it, vote for people who will do so. Again, you keep assuming things about my position, and it makes you look like a complete and total idiot.


I never said it shouldn't be followed. I simply said I disagreed with the morality of the law. I will obey it, but I will also vote for politicians that will hopefully repeal it. That is what your beloved constitution was built around.


No, the Supreme Court has not ruled it against the constitution. You know about the three different branches of government, their functions included, right?



Every US citizen should think of the constitution as the "beloved constitution" and you know why?

P.S.- The Patriot Act is not legal, therefore it is illegal. Big Grin

Something can go against the constitution and most certainly be legal. (Sometimes it just takes a very long time to be corrected)

And as for the "beloved" comment.....I make it a point to avoid idol worship.
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27-07-2013, 06:32 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 06:24 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 06:15 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Except you didn't argue it as purely a moral issue. You claimed it was illegal. Legality is not subjective. It is either legal or it isn't. You think the Patriot Act is immoral. I do too. You'd be a complete and utter dolt to deny that it is currently legal.


The United States is a representative democracy. The people do not directly impact the laws. We vote people in who decide on those laws. If you want to change it, vote for people who will do so. Again, you keep assuming things about my position, and it makes you look like a complete and total idiot.


I never said it shouldn't be followed. I simply said I disagreed with the morality of the law. I will obey it, but I will also vote for politicians that will hopefully repeal it. That is what your beloved constitution was built around.


No, the Supreme Court has not ruled it against the constitution. You know about the three different branches of government, their functions included, right?

Nothing that contradicts the constitution can become law in the first place sooooooooo it isn't legal OR moral in any sense. I'm not going to be politically correct and wait my term until the congressman gets reelected like they do every year to take a stance on an illegal legislation issue. You can follow it all you like but I will not.

Talking about the constitution like this, "your beloved constitution" makes me assume things about you that maybe you don't like, but I don't really care. Every US citizen should think of the constitution as the "beloved constitution" and you know why? That single document and its amendments protect our right to privacy, freedom, a trial, and most importantly right to reject unfair legislation.

P.S.- The Patriot Act is not legal, therefore it is illegal. Big Grin
le·gal adjective \ˈlē-gəl\




Definition of LEGAL




1
: of or relating to law
2
a : deriving authority from or founded on law : de jure

A law is legal until such a time as the supreme court declares it unconstitutional. DOMA was clearly in violation of a couple of amendments yet until the court ruled that it was unconstitutional it was legal and a law. Thats how the system works, kid. Doesn't matter if you personally dislike a law or think it is unconstitutional until the courts rule it such it is Law.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-07-2013, 06:32 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 06:29 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(27-07-2013 06:24 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Every US citizen should think of the constitution as the "beloved constitution" and you know why?

P.S.- The Patriot Act is not legal, therefore it is illegal. Big Grin

Something can go against the constitution and most certainly be legal. (Sometimes it just takes a very long time to be corrected)

And as for the "beloved" comment.....I make it a point to avoid idol worship.

Sorry for the assumption that someone would revere their constitution and its freedom in a high regard.

The point I'm trying to make is that if something goes against the constitution it is void even if it gets past by legislation. You can't override the constitution whenever you want and expect the people to follow it.

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27-07-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
The power of the media never ceases to amaze me, and neither does the stupidity of the sheeple.

Case and point: the media has repeatedly implied and stated that what snowmen did was illegal, and the media have framed the debate as " what should be done with snowmen" " is he a traitor or not".

Yet not once has any media outlet stated what snowmen did that was against the law?

Since people are sheep and follow the lead of the media nobody has ever even heard of what it was that he supposedly did that was illegal, yet people are just accepting the idea that he did something illegal.

Can anyone here list one thing he did that was illegal?

I am predicting nobody can.
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27-07-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 06:32 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  ... if something goes against the constitution...

Yes.

But if you're not a supreme court justice, then your opinion as to whether or not a law goes against the constitution means precisely jack shit.

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27-07-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
(27-07-2013 06:24 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Nothing that contradicts the constitution can become law in the first place sooooooooo it isn't legal OR moral in any sense. I'm not going to be politically correct and wait my term until the congressman gets reelected like they do every year to take a stance on an illegal legislation issue. You can follow it all you like but I will not.

It is legal. It is not moral. You are wrong. Drinking Beverage

(27-07-2013 06:24 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Talking about the constitution like this, "your beloved constitution" makes me assume things about you that maybe you don't like, but I don't really care. Every US citizen should think of the constitution as the "beloved constitution" and you know why? That single document and its amendments protect our right to privacy, freedom, a trial, and most importantly right to reject unfair legislation.

Really? So how was DOMA and slavery legal? That beloved document must do a lot to defend your rights. Drinking Beverage

(27-07-2013 06:24 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  P.S.- The Patriot Act is not legal, therefore it is illegal. Big Grin

That's not the definition of legality. Again, I suggest that you research the functions of the three federal branches. Drinking Beverage

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27-07-2013, 06:44 PM
RE: Snowden Situation
Dear eligant atheist,

The US supreme court determines if a law is constitutional or not -- only they have this authority, not congress, not you or I. They have upheld the most controversial parts of the patriot act.

It doesn't mean I agree with it, but is law. I don't agree with many laws but I respect them -- if I decide not to respect the law, then I will suffer a consequence -- just as Snowden should.

I suggest you go to the ACLU and explain it to them how you feel and then they'll explain the tenets of stare decissus and res judicata. Drinking Beverage


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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