Snowed indicted for espionage.
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24-06-2013, 10:08 AM
Snowed indicted for espionage.
(23-06-2013 08:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-06-2013 08:00 PM)Julius Wrote:  Since when have Republicans ever been the defenders of the public's freedoms. Really...when in the last 100 years?

You are kidding. They would do anything to publicly embarrass the president. It has nothing to do defending anything. It's about the expediency of opportunity. They would have used it if they had been handed it.

It never ceases to amaze me as to the amount of conservative right wing sounding garbage on this site.

In one thread someone (cljr) will say that bush didnt lie about wmd in the lead up to the iraq war.

And in another thread buckyball is implying that republicans are for defending government whistleblowers.

The garbage spewed on this site is amazing.
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24-06-2013, 10:12 AM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 10:08 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(23-06-2013 08:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You are kidding. They would do anything to publicly embarrass the president. It has nothing to do defending anything. It's about the expediency of opportunity. They would have used it if they had been handed it.
In one thread someone (cljr) will say that bush didnt lie about wmd in the lead up to the iraq war.

Please link me to where cljr is denying that Bush lied, my bullshit detector is going off.

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24-06-2013, 10:19 AM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 10:08 AM)I and I Wrote:  In one thread someone (cljr) will say that bush didnt lie about wmd in the lead up to the iraq war.

That's c j l r, mind.

Do I really need to quote myself again, just to show that you're misinterpreting (or worse, deliberately mischaracterizing) my opinions?

Nah, I'll just paraphrase myself. The bumbling ineptitude of the US invasion and occuption is best explained by a leadership that was misinformed and naive about the facts of the situation.

What YOU seem to think is that the Bush administration are cackling mustache-twirlers sitting in the oval office going "we r invade cuz America is evil lol sheeple", and having all their conspiratorial competence evaporate as soon as there were boots on the ground.
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24-06-2013, 10:22 AM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 10:12 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Please link me to where cljr is denying that Bush lied, my bullshit detector is going off.

c j l r, man! Not you too!

What I did say was that claims of Iraqi WMDs seemed - to me - to be exaggerated self-deception, based on a tiny kernel of truth and built up by systematic human fallacy in analysis (primarily due to pressure from above to get the 'right' result, but also the infinite human capacity to find what you're looking for).

EDIT: ie, this:
(04-06-2013 05:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The part where the claims of Iraqi WMDs were based on real (possible but unlikely, but real nonetheless) evidence, but were amplified beyond all reason by confirmation bias in a political echo chamber? The part where the civilian administration overruled the military advice they received? The part where almost no plans were made for the rebuilding of Iraqi society and government - something that seems way more plausible if the people in charge genuinely believed all that "they'll embrace democracy with open arms and flowers" stuff they were spouting beforehand? The part where they tried to do the occupation on the cheap, to, ultimately, nobody's benefit? The fact that the region is STILL suffering horribly from the fallout of those actions? The part where international opinion of the United States (and its concomitant soft power) took a huge nosedive and has never recovered?

Not exactly the tight planning and execution you'd expect of people dedicated and competent enough to pull off a massive and thoroughly coordinated disinformation campaign (and false flag attacks, if you wanna go full retard). That's what I meant about conspiracy theories being inconsistent.
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24-06-2013, 10:29 AM
Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 10:22 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-06-2013 10:12 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Please link me to where cljr is denying that Bush lied, my bullshit detector is going off.

c j l r, man! Not you too!

What I did say was that claims of Iraqi WMDs seemed - to me - to be exaggerated self-deception, based on a tiny kernel of truth and built up by systematic human fallacy in analysis (primarily due to pressure from above to get the 'right' result, but also the infinite human capacity to find what you're looking for).

EDIT: ie, this:
(04-06-2013 05:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The part where the claims of Iraqi WMDs were based on real (possible but unlikely, but real nonetheless) evidence, but were amplified beyond all reason by confirmation bias in a political echo chamber? The part where the civilian administration overruled the military advice they received? The part where almost no plans were made for the rebuilding of Iraqi society and government - something that seems way more plausible if the people in charge genuinely believed all that "they'll embrace democracy with open arms and flowers" stuff they were spouting beforehand? The part where they tried to do the occupation on the cheap, to, ultimately, nobody's benefit? The fact that the region is STILL suffering horribly from the fallout of those actions? The part where international opinion of the United States (and its concomitant soft power) took a huge nosedive and has never recovered?

Not exactly the tight planning and execution you'd expect of people dedicated and competent enough to pull off a massive and thoroughly coordinated disinformation campaign (and false flag attacks, if you wanna go full retard). That's what I meant about conspiracy theories being inconsistent.

"Based on real evidence" no sorry bro, bush lied and they knew there was no evidence. They purposely knew they were making shit up, repeated the lies over and over to get the sheeple on board.
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24-06-2013, 10:34 AM
Snowed indicted for espionage.
Cjlr is basically saying that bush and company didn't plan on lying and deceiving people because bush and company believed that there were wmd.

Fox news now back pedals and that is their defense of bush today. "He didnt lie to people because he believed what he was saying to be true"

Where is that bullshit detector?
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24-06-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 10:29 AM)I and I Wrote:  "Based on real evidence" no sorry bro, bush lied and they knew there was no evidence. They purposely knew they were making shit up, repeated the lies over and over to get the sheeple on board.

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware you had a machine capable of reading the thoughts of people 11 years ago, in order to know exactly what they knew and when.

I think incompetence is the more likely explanation.

You think deliberate malice is the more likely explanation.

See how easy it is to say that calmly and without personal insults?
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24-06-2013, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2013 10:50 AM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 10:22 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-06-2013 10:12 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Please link me to where cljr is denying that Bush lied, my bullshit detector is going off.

c j l r, man! Not you too!

What I did say was that claims of Iraqi WMDs seemed - to me - to be exaggerated self-deception, based on a tiny kernel of truth and built up by systematic human fallacy in analysis (primarily due to pressure from above to get the 'right' result, but also the infinite human capacity to find what you're looking for).

EDIT: ie, this:
(04-06-2013 05:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The part where the claims of Iraqi WMDs were based on real (possible but unlikely, but real nonetheless) evidence, but were amplified beyond all reason by confirmation bias in a political echo chamber? The part where the civilian administration overruled the military advice they received? The part where almost no plans were made for the rebuilding of Iraqi society and government - something that seems way more plausible if the people in charge genuinely believed all that "they'll embrace democracy with open arms and flowers" stuff they were spouting beforehand? The part where they tried to do the occupation on the cheap, to, ultimately, nobody's benefit? The fact that the region is STILL suffering horribly from the fallout of those actions? The part where international opinion of the United States (and its concomitant soft power) took a huge nosedive and has never recovered?

Not exactly the tight planning and execution you'd expect of people dedicated and competent enough to pull off a massive and thoroughly coordinated disinformation campaign (and false flag attacks, if you wanna go full retard). That's what I meant about conspiracy theories being inconsistent.

At the risk of going off on some kind of tangent I think the answer is somewhere in between bumbling ineptitude and malicious intent...IE: greed.

There is evidence that shows that all the WMD stuff was falsified. It's total bull, thats why the UN wouldn't play ball.

The bush occupation commission had 3 months to plan the occupation and most of that time was spent filling for equipment/office space/staff. For contrast Germany/Japan occupation plans where made over 2 years each.

Soldiers where instructed to ignore all looting, to the point where many buildings where gutted for copper and even rebar, not just inventory/a few shops. This was systematic and went on for weeks. This is also unprecedented in occupation policy.

No bid contracts where given to corrupt logistics and security companies, who skimmed billions at the expense of the american people and often endangering American soldiers.

Against recommendations at various level of the military the Bush white house ordered the dismantling of the Iraqi military. Which incited rebellion among many armed ex-military Iraqis, extending the conflict and the reconstruction process.

High ranking Bush affiliates won lucrative re-construction contracts and where insulted from blame while the white house played dumb.

So yeah I don't think Bush set out with a goal of "kill all them A-Rabs" but I also don't think he set out to "liberate the people and bring democracy"... More like "Play dumb? Okay I can do that, everybody already thinks I'm a stupid monkey man. Lets make a lot of money boys!" ...It was all purposefully mismanaged to maximize profit for the war machine.

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24-06-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 10:44 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  At the risk of going off on some kind of tangent I think the answer is somewhere in between bumbling ineptitude and malicious intent...IE: greed.

No, I'd totally agree with that.

(24-06-2013 10:44 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  The bush occupation commission had 3 months to plan the occupation and most of that time was spent filling for equipment/office space/staff. For contrast Germany/Japan occupation plans where made over 2 years each.

Soldiers where instructed to ignore all looting, to the point where many buildings where gutted for copper and even rebar, not just inventory/a few shops.

No bid contracts where given to corrupt logistics and security companies, who skimmed billions at the expense of the american people and often endangering American soldiers.

Against recommendations at various level of the military the Bush white house ordered the dismantling of the Iraqi military. Which incited rebellion among many armed ex-military Iraqis, extending the conflict and the reconstruction process.

High ranking Bush affiliates won lucrative re-construction contracts and where insulted from blame while the white house played dumb.

Right. A mix of laziness, greed, and incompetence.

My reasoning for this is (among other things) that the intelligence and malice necessary to have planned and executed the whole thing on false premises is nowhere evident in the actions of those same people once it was underway (the part where it actually comes time to benefit).

I and I's reasoning is that America cocks propaganda evil cocks cocks.
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24-06-2013, 11:42 AM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 10:59 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-06-2013 10:44 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  At the risk of going off on some kind of tangent I think the answer is somewhere in between bumbling ineptitude and malicious intent...IE: greed.

No, I'd totally agree with that.

(24-06-2013 10:44 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  The bush occupation commission had 3 months to plan the occupation and most of that time was spent filling for equipment/office space/staff. For contrast Germany/Japan occupation plans where made over 2 years each.

Soldiers where instructed to ignore all looting, to the point where many buildings where gutted for copper and even rebar, not just inventory/a few shops.

No bid contracts where given to corrupt logistics and security companies, who skimmed billions at the expense of the american people and often endangering American soldiers.

Against recommendations at various level of the military the Bush white house ordered the dismantling of the Iraqi military. Which incited rebellion among many armed ex-military Iraqis, extending the conflict and the reconstruction process.

High ranking Bush affiliates won lucrative re-construction contracts and where insulted from blame while the white house played dumb.

Right. A mix of laziness, greed, and incompetence.

My reasoning for this is (among other things) that the intelligence and malice necessary to have planned and executed the whole thing on false premises is nowhere evident in the actions of those same people once it was underway (the part where it actually comes time to benefit).

I and I's reasoning is that America cocks propaganda evil cocks cocks.

Right but to be clear I think the ineptitude is fostered/manufactured/sanctioned/planned. It's a crime to invade sovereign nations and extort said nation and the American people to garner private funds but it's not a crime to be bad laughably bad at your job.

The ineptitude is feigned, it creates plausible deniability.

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