Snowed indicted for espionage.
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24-06-2013, 11:46 AM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 11:42 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Right but to be clear I think the ineptitude is fostered/manufactured/sanctioned/planned. It's a crime to invade sovereign nations and extort said nation and the American people to garner private funds but it's not a crime to be bad laughably bad at your job.

The ineptitude is feigned.

The appearance of it may be, and ol' W was certainly able to project and exploit that image in his electioneering.

The reality of ineptitude in planning and executing the invasion and occupation of Iraq are another matter. If it were to be done at all, it could have been done much better - by almost any standards - and certainly to much greater benefit of those carrying it out.
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24-06-2013, 11:56 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2013 12:02 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 11:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-06-2013 11:42 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Right but to be clear I think the ineptitude is fostered/manufactured/sanctioned/planned. It's a crime to invade sovereign nations and extort said nation and the American people to garner private funds but it's not a crime to be bad laughably bad at your job.

The ineptitude is feigned.

The appearance of it may be, and ol' W was certainly able to project and exploit that image in his electioneering.

The reality of ineptitude in planning and executing the invasion and occupation of Iraq are another matter. If it were to be done at all, it could have been done much better - by almost any standards - and certainly to much greater benefit of those carrying it out.

Right I think we are on the same page...

Ineptitude is purposely displayed and purposely built in in the planning/running of the occupation as a means to prolong intervention and hence prolong profitability for private sector.

After the fact ineptitude is cited as the reason we wound up there to begin with, why everything failed and the war lasted so long, absolving Bush of war crimes.

The ineptitude is a cover for the greed, as is the Islamophobia.

I can't prove it, which of course is why it's such a great plan. Is Bush a puppet for the war machine and not just stupid. Yes. Can I prove it. No.

If the greed wasn't the prime motivator here Noam Chomsky would cease to be the prophet of the century but of course he continues to be proven right, over and over and over again.

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24-06-2013, 12:13 PM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
For once I agree with 1&1. Snowden should be lauded as a hero. Free criticism of the govt's actions is the foundation of democracy. How the govt obtains secrets should not itself be secret. They should have told their people about this long ago.
Meanwhile re Bush I like Hitch's take on this. Iraq with its monster Sadam was a fiasco largely created by the US.... Not to mention their shameful treatment of the Iraqi Kurds who were encouraged to rebel and then hung out to dry. Bush needed to do something to right the US's many wrongs and if it took lying so be it. Not so different from covering up Obama's phone monitoring tactics.
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24-06-2013, 01:26 PM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
Bush knew there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and purposely lied to the american people. I CAN'T FUCKING BELIEVE THERE ARE IDIOTS OUT THERE THAT STILL BELIEVE OTHERWISE. There are apparently some on fox news and thinking atheist.com.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb3Ojns7fuA
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24-06-2013, 01:30 PM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
Are you guys fox news dumb?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPJCPcYCupY
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24-06-2013, 01:39 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2013 01:51 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
Back on topic I don't really care about if Snowden is a criminal or a hero, his demonization is a diversion. Personally I think he should have made an info-bomb of the type Julain Assange has been known to use. If went to congress with the stipulation that if it is covered up and nothing gets done/he doesn't input some code every day before midnight or whatever, the lid gets blown off the whole thing. Then he could have had the best of both worlds.

...but regardless instead of scapegoating Snowden (who has now been corroborated mind you) we should addressing the violation of our 4th amendment rights by the executive/congressional branches...and working out legal failsafes for US citizens and politicians who might otherwise be imprisoned/extorted based on PRISM data.

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24-06-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
Couple dodgy moves there, I and I. Also, thanks for calling me an idiot. Classy as ever.

Fox News is (surprise!) irrelevant. Their general crapulence does not mean that everything they say is always false. I shouldn't have to tell you that.

Saying something which turns out later not to be true is not lying. Lying is when you know it's not true. Do the details really escape you? You don't know what they knew at the time.

I don't know what Bush & co knew 12 years ago.

YOU don't know what Bush & Co knew 12 years ago.

What we have are opinions regarding what they knew and when did they know it.

I've stated why I think the idea of purely fabricated and deliberate lies is inconsistent with the poor handling of subsequent events (the very events said lies are supposed to have been created to bring about!).

You've... called me an idiot.
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24-06-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 11:56 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Right I think we are on the same page...

Ineptitude is purposely displayed and purposely built in in the planning/running of the occupation as a means to prolong intervention and hence prolong profitability for private sector.

Well, not really, on that claim. Taking a cut from a fully functioning and integrated Iraqi economy is far, far more profitable than the odd contracting and resource extraction from a failed state. Even if the whole point was making money - half-assed smash and grab is demonstrably a bad way to do it.

(24-06-2013 11:56 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  After the fact ineptitude is cited as the reason we wound up there to begin with, why everything failed and the war lasted so long, absolving Bush of war crimes.

The ineptitude is a cover for the greed, as is the Islamophobia.

Incompetence or ineptitude is not an excuse for any criminal behaviour - I've actually never seen that claimed, have you heard that from people? The culpability's still there.


(24-06-2013 01:39 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Back on topic I don't really care about if Snowden is a criminal or a hero, his demonization is a diversion. Personally I think he should have made an info-bomb of the type Julain Assange has been known to use. If went to congress with the stipulation that if it is covered up and nothing gets done/he doesn't input some code every day before midnight or whatever, the lid gets blown off the whole thing. Then he could have had the best of both worlds.

...but regardless instead of scapegoating Snowden (who has now been corroborated mind you) we should addressing the violation of our 4th amendment rights by the executive/congressional branches...and working out legal failsafes for US citizens and politicians who might otherwise be imprisoned/extorted based on PRISM data.

Whether or not he's technically able to be prosecuted, I don't particularly care. I think it's a good thing that this is known. I think it's a good thing that people are aware of it.

Talking about him, eg the stupid soap opera of what flights he's taking, instead of the unprecedented, still-ongoing, and questionably legal surveillance of Americans and others, is indeed stupid.
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24-06-2013, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2013 02:52 PM by Revenant77x.)
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 02:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-06-2013 11:56 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Right I think we are on the same page...

Ineptitude is purposely displayed and purposely built in in the planning/running of the occupation as a means to prolong intervention and hence prolong profitability for private sector.

Well, not really, on that claim. Taking a cut from a fully functioning and integrated Iraqi economy is far, far more profitable than the odd contracting and resource extraction from a failed state. Even if the whole point was making money - half-assed smash and grab is demonstrably a bad way to do it.

(24-06-2013 11:56 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  After the fact ineptitude is cited as the reason we wound up there to begin with, why everything failed and the war lasted so long, absolving Bush of war crimes.

The ineptitude is a cover for the greed, as is the Islamophobia.

Incompetence or ineptitude is not an excuse for any criminal behaviour - I've actually never seen that claimed, have you heard that from people? The culpability's still there.


(24-06-2013 01:39 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Back on topic I don't really care about if Snowden is a criminal or a hero, his demonization is a diversion. Personally I think he should have made an info-bomb of the type Julain Assange has been known to use. If went to congress with the stipulation that if it is covered up and nothing gets done/he doesn't input some code every day before midnight or whatever, the lid gets blown off the whole thing. Then he could have had the best of both worlds.

...but regardless instead of scapegoating Snowden (who has now been corroborated mind you) we should addressing the violation of our 4th amendment rights by the executive/congressional branches...and working out legal failsafes for US citizens and politicians who might otherwise be imprisoned/extorted based on PRISM data.

Whether or not he's technically able to be prosecuted, I don't particularly care. I think it's a good thing that this is known. I think it's a good thing that people are aware of it.

Talking about him, eg the stupid soap opera of what flights he's taking, instead of the unprecedented, still-ongoing, and questionably legal surveillance of Americans and others, is indeed stupid.

This is why I disagree with the way he did things. He made this story more about himself than what is going on. I think Bucky was probably right, in that had he given this to senate repubs as a way to discredit the president they would have jumped over the moon to do so even though they generally support this kind of thing.

As for his fugitive status, well he chose to go outside of legal channels with this and knew what the cost was going to be. Had he done so anonymously it would look less like an attention grab.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-06-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Snowed indicted for espionage.
(24-06-2013 02:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Well, not really, on that claim. Taking a cut from a fully functioning and integrated Iraqi economy is far, far more profitable than the odd contracting and resource extraction from a failed state. Even if the whole point was making money - half-assed smash and grab is demonstrably a bad way to do it.

It's not about what is best for both economies as a whole, it's about what is best for the interests pulling the strings, Haliburton and others stood to make far more money by drawing out reconstruction.

(24-06-2013 02:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Incompetence or ineptitude is not an excuse for any criminal behaviour - I've actually never seen that claimed, have you heard that from people? The culpability's still there.

You would have to prove that he was making back room deals(which nobody ever will), I'm not saying stupidity is a defense in court (ignorance of the law is not an excuse). I'm say the feigned stupidity is how he dodges the tough questions and keeps the public "steppin' and fetchin' Like their heads were on fire and their asses was catching." You can't have a 'smart' president fucking up so royally a war in which his VP and all his backers hold a financial interest without arising suspicion but with Bush you are not sure if he is malevolent or just plain stupid and the media was more than happy to run with the stupid angle.

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