So I Have This Mormon Friend
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20-08-2014, 04:23 PM
So I Have This Mormon Friend
Hey everyone, can someone help me out? I'd like to get an accurate, unbiased understanding of what mormons believe and think.

So I have this mormon friend. A genuine friend; extremely nice and pretty cool. So were shooting the shit and religion came up and he wants to chat about religion. Of course I don't mind. Like most agnostic atheists, I find religion fascinating. I said well I gtg soon, so lets save it for another time because that's a WHOLE other topic. Anyway, I'd like to get an accurate understanding of mormonism because well,...frankly I'm interested.

Any topics I should bring up that might spark some interesting convo? Remember this is my buddy. It's not a debate, I'm not trying to make jokes, and I'm not ever looking to be mean.

I'm just hoping I don't run into the 'Devine Revelation' situation, as I'm not sure how to deal with that. I'm not even sure if there is any way to deal with it. It's a philosophical paradox.

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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20-08-2014, 04:27 PM
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...k-a-Mormon

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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20-08-2014, 04:41 PM
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
I think the Southpark episode "All about Mormons" was a great mashup of it:

http://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s0...ut-mormons

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-08-2014, 04:51 PM
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
You could start here.


OK, seriously, I have no idea how to not say that some beliefs are flat out crazy when they're flat out crazy like most of Mormonism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2014, 05:12 PM
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
I have a few notes, I will share, pick through them, use or delete as you wish.

Also this video is a must see....short, behind the scenes of the inner mormon temple secret filming..





Short snap shot of mormonism: In Mormonism, men and women have the potential of becoming gods. President Lorenzo Snow said, "As god once was, man is. As God is, man may become." In order to reach this exalted state of godhood, a person must first become a good Mormon, pay a full ten percent tithe to the Mormon church, follow various laws and ordinances of the church, and be found worthy. At this point, they receive a temple recommend, whereupon the Mormon is allowed to enter their sacred temples in order to go through a set of secret rituals: baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, and various oaths of secrecy and commitment. Additionally, four secret handshakes are taught so the believing Mormon, upon entering the third level of Mormon heaven, can shake hands with god in a certain pattern. This celestial ritual is for the purpose of permitting entrance into the highest level of heaven. For those who achieve this highest of heavens, exaltation to godhood awaits them. Then he or she will be permitted to have his or her own planet and be the god of his own world and the Mormon system will be expanded to other planets.

issues with the book of mormon:

1. The book originally claimed that the Indians were all descended from Jews who left Jerusalem about 621 B.C.E. because of the imminent Babylonian captivity. Now, after several thousand edits, it claims that the BofM people were "one of many" of the people of the New World. All available DNA evidence indicates that racially the American Indians came from either Asian, Pacific islander or even some input from Early European mixtures in Asia, but none, zero, from Semitic sources.

2. The Nephites and Lamanites, the 2 Jewish groups that were opposed to each other, supposedly brought with them horses, sheep, cattle and a variety of grains and fruits. NONE of which were evident when the European explorers arrived. There was no knowledge or history of these animals among the Indians of that time.

3. None of the animals that were native to either North or South America; Mountain lions, buffalo, elk, deer, grizzly bears, jaguars, howler monkeys and so on are not mentioned.

4. The location of their landing, a place identified as a "narrow neck of land" has never been identified. The church originally located it in Central america, due to all the archaeology that was being discovered during the last century. Now they make no claims. No specific terrain formations that obviously stand out, like volcanoes, are not mentioned. Central America is home to over 40 volcanoes, some of which were known to be active during the 1900 year period that encompasses the Book of Mormon.

5. The book speaks of vast cities, numerous armies numbering in the thousands, bloody battles and so on by armed and armored forces on horseback and on foot. None of the cities described or any remnant of any battles or anything indicating what the book describes has ever been found.

6. The book mentions coinage, a monetary system, the smelting of metals-including steel, which was unknown to the Israelis of 621 BC- and the ability to mine, smelt, and forge all manner of implements and weapons. Native Americans possessed no such technology and there is no evidence it ever existed prior to the Europeans arriving. In the Holy Land, where coinage was in use for centuries, there today you can still find ancient coins in numerous locations. None in the Americas.

7. The Book of Mormon itself was not an original idea. The concept of Indians being Jewish-which was lampooned by Mel Brooks in "Blazing Saddles"- was an idea currently popular when the book was written. A book entitled "View of the Hebrews" was already in print prior to the Book of Mormon's publication. there are many parallels between to two books, oddly enough.

8. The Golden Plates from which the BofM was translated were supposed to have magically been kept in a hill that happened to be close to Joseph Smith's home. He was seen carrying a bundle under his arm which he claimed were the plates. The plates, made of gold or an alloy of gold, were supposedly about nine by six by nearly a foot thick, a bundle that would weigh 300 pounds, that he was carrying around under his arm.

9. the book was published in 1830. The First Vision, from which Joseph supposedly was told by God about the book, happened in 1820. In the intervening period he was married and applied for membership to the Methodist church. He was denied because he was known as a man of low character. The First Vision story did not come out until after the publication of the book, and his own mother, who wrote a diary of that time, never mentions it.

10. Many aspects of the BofM and characters in the book-Laban, from whom the golden plates were taken in Jerusalem- just happen to be characters in Masonic ceremonies. Joseph Smith became a Mason along with his brothers and Brigham Young during the period of time all this was happening.

The characters in the BofM only encountered 2 other groups that were not a part of their solo journey- both of which also came from Judea. There is no mention of any other tribe or group. In that period of American history, the entirety of North and South America were populated from Canada to Patagonia with millions of Native Americans, none of which were ever encountered.

Joseph Smith, the founder:

1. Came from a family that was known for their slothfulness and illegal behavior. Joseph Smith was tried and convicted of a crime called "money digging" which was a scam wherein he and some unscrupulous friends convinced local people that they knew the whereabouts of secret treasure, and would con them into being paid to dig for it.

2. While leading the church in Illinois, created an illegal bank by convincing his followers to contribute their life savings. He did this by showing them a bos that was supposedly full of coins, but in fact had one layer and the rest filled with rocks. He, the chosen prophet of god, then invested the money in bad land schemes and lost it all, first running from the law and then blaming it all on other people who he had coerced into signing their names to the contracts.

3. Became a polygamist first without bothering to tell his wife, until he was supposedly caught shanking his 16 year old housemaid, Fanny Alger. There is some dispute about that, but it is known he polygamously married at least ten women all under the legal marrying age, the youngest 14. She later admitted, after going to Utah with the Mormons, that he sired a child by her.
The "revelation" on polygamy happened after he began having affairs with women. He even sent men on missions and then convinced their wives at home to engage in sexual congress with him.

4. Joseph smith was imprisoned because the people of Nauvoo, Illinois, rebelling against him, published a paper denouncing him. Smith's henchmen destroyed the printing press, a direct offense against the constitutional right of freedom of the press. He also threatened the lives of everyone involved with the paper and confiscated their goods and property by force.

After his death, because of Brigham Young's position and leadership in the church, he was able to keep it together and ended up taking the Mormons to Utah.

And that is why I, Stephen Young, Brigham's Great great grandson, was born in Utah.

----------------------------------------------------

2 Nephi 2:25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
False: Men exist without Adam's fall

Birth of Jesus
Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
CONTRADICTS Matt. 2:1, Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea Alma 7:10 contradicts the Bible in Matt. 2:1

Cimeter (Scimitar)
Mosiah9:16 And it came to pass that I did arm them with bows, and with arrows, with swords, and with cimeters, and with clubs, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons which we could invent, and I and my people did go forth against the Lamanites to battle. (See also Enos 1:20; Mosiah 10:8; Alma 2:12; 27:29; 43:18,20,37; 44:8; 60:2; Helaman 1:14)
Scimitars (Curved Swords) didn't exist until the 500's. 200-187 B.C.

Elephants
Ether 9:19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.
Elephants weren't in America at the time of the BOM

Honey Bees
Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.
Honey Bees were introduced to the Americas by the Spanish

God Indwells the Righteous
Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
CONTRADICTS D&C 130:3, "The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false." BOM contradicts D&C

Horses
1 Nephi 18:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper. (Horses see 2 Nephi 12:7; 2 Nephi 15:28; Enos 1:21; Alma 18:9,10,12; 20:6; 3 Nephi 3:22; 4:4; 6:1; 21:14; Ether 9:19; )
Horses didn't exist in America until the 16th Century 590-589 BC

Steel
1 Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel. (See also 1 Neph 16:18; 2 Nephi 5:15; Jarom 1:8; Ether 7:9)
The Jews didn't have steel at that time. 600-592 B.C.

Salvation
2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. After all we can do
Salvation by works, not by Grace; disagrees with Christian belief

Silk
Alma 4:6 And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.
Jews didn't have silk then. The Jews didn't have silk at that time 86-83 B.C.

--------------------------------------

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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20-08-2014, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2014 06:57 PM by smileXsmileXsmile.)
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
That south park video is great and that hidden camera video was just straight up creepy. heres another video i found that seems legit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSlbuli7HM here's another source i used https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKGj9sSVJyU

Here's some notes i gathered which you may or may not care about. We'll see what happens but I feel I have a pretty good grasp on the Mormon religion.




mormonism:


choose “a mission” or donate $10000 cash

social suicide!! -> cult?

mormon magic underwear -> requires a church id card

jesus visited america

first man and woman (garden of eden) was in missouri [what about what the old testament says]

levels of heaven/ mormons can become God so they’re countless Gods

“outer darkness” instead of hell (for ex-mormons)

"spirit children" are waiting to be born that’s why they need to have a lot of babies

racist until 1970: dark skin is a punishment (the mark of cain[son of adam and eve]) for adam and eve eating the 'apple'. BUT once they become mormon they will be rewarded by their skin becoming white like Joseph smith

native americans are actually jews and were white but God punished them for killing another tribe and turned their skin red.

polygamy

sexist against women

animals mentioned are not native to america





childhood indoctrination = child abuse (they can't consent)


tax

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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20-08-2014, 06:50 PM
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
Does he dance?

Because we can dance when we want to
We can leave your friends behind
Because your friends dont dance
And if they dont dane
Then they aint no friends of mine

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20-08-2014, 06:52 PM
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
(20-08-2014 06:50 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Does he dance?

Because we can dance when we want to
We can leave your friends behind
Because your friends dont dance
And if they dont dane
Then they aint no friends of mine

He may or may not dance. It's inconclusive at the moment.

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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20-08-2014, 09:40 PM
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
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20-08-2014, 11:09 PM
RE: So I Have This Mormon Friend
(20-08-2014 05:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I have a few notes, I will share, pick through them, use or delete as you wish.

Also this video is a must see....short, behind the scenes of the inner mormon temple secret filming..




Oh wow! That video is interesting! The comments underneath are just as interesting- it really hits a sore spot, the Mormons feel a little out of control when the secrets are exposed.

Such classic cult tricks with this group, text book brainwashing.
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