So I guess I'm out now?
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12-05-2014, 09:27 AM
Shocked So I guess I'm out now?
Went over to my parents to celebrate Mother's Day.

Brought Sarah with me.

I forgot that my brother was gonna be there. For context, my brother is a hate-mongering, homophobic, YEC Calvinist. He started going on about how a university in his city has gotten a bunch of complaints about him evangelizing on campus, and how wrong that was, and then went on to talk about some guy that he stopped on his way to class to preach at him, and the guy basically gave him a "live-and-let-live" response, and how that made the guy a coward and an idiot.

I could just see the gears grinding in Sarah's head, and finally she couldn't listen to his drivel anymore and just started drilling him about how some people are actually able to see the world in shades of grey and not as a moral black and white, and then they got into it over moral authority, and my brother immediately went to a shitload of cherry-picking around verses, and when Sarah brought up some of the less-savory parts of the O.T. he immediately went for "Oh well that was the old law"

Now, I think my brother is a useless sack of shit, and I've always got Sarah's back, so obviously when he started using a bunch of dishonest bullshit against her I chimed in and backed her up. He started in about how science is inaccurate because it's all based on theories, and Sarah brought up how he can possibly believe everything thats in the Bible, like JOnah living inside a fish, or a global flood, and he said "Well I trust the Bible because I believe it's God's Word", to which I replied "Well that's convenient" (damn cop out), and then he (for some reason) brought up "how can we sure that Julius Caesar" existed (when Sarah was citing historical textbooks having more relevance than the Bible) , and I replied "How can you be sure Jesus even existed?"

At this point tension was pretty high and my folks were just kind of staring, so I stood up, grabbed my shoes, handed Sarah hers, and I was just like "Well, I think we're gonna go ahead and go. Happy Mother's Day!" and we left.

So I guess I get to see how this pans out over the next couple of weeks. Thumbsup
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12-05-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
Julius Caesar argument.... preaching on campuses.... he wouldn't happen to be involved with Ray Comfort et. al. would he? School of Biblical Evangelism?

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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12-05-2014, 09:36 AM
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
(12-05-2014 09:32 AM)Charis Wrote:  Julius Caesar argument.... preaching on campuses.... he wouldn't happen to be involved with Ray Comfort et. al. would he? School of Biblical Evangelism?

He's just your common jackass going through seminary. He thinks every person who isn't god-spewing blowhard needs to be constantly bullied until they BELIEVE.

While Sarah and I were sitting there he told some story about a guy he knows that stopped going to church when he started dating an atheist girl. His words were "if he wants to live a life of sin, that's his choice"

I just kind of looked at Sarah and smirked.

ALSO

What even is the significance of the Julius Caesar argument? For me it was just a direct segway into questioning the existence of another popular fictional character who lived around that same time.
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12-05-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
(12-05-2014 09:36 AM)Jasozz Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 09:32 AM)Charis Wrote:  Julius Caesar argument.... preaching on campuses.... he wouldn't happen to be involved with Ray Comfort et. al. would he? School of Biblical Evangelism?

He's just your common jackass going through seminary. He thinks every person who isn't god-spewing blowhard needs to be constantly bullied until they BELIEVE.

While Sarah and I were sitting there he told some story about a guy he knows that stopped going to church when he started dating an atheist girl. His words were "if he wants to live a life of sin, that's his choice"

I just kind of looked at Sarah and smirked.

ALSO

What even is the significance of the Julius Caesar argument? For me it was just a direct segway into questioning the existence of another popular fictional character who lived around that same time.

Your brother sounds like a dick, sorry you have to put up with him.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-05-2014, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2014 09:43 AM by Charis.)
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
(12-05-2014 09:36 AM)Jasozz Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 09:32 AM)Charis Wrote:  Julius Caesar argument.... preaching on campuses.... he wouldn't happen to be involved with Ray Comfort et. al. would he? School of Biblical Evangelism?

He's just your common jackass going through seminary. He thinks every person who isn't god-spewing blowhard needs to be constantly bullied until they BELIEVE.

While Sarah and I were sitting there he told some story about a guy he knows that stopped going to church when he started dating an atheist girl. His words were "if he wants to live a life of sin, that's his choice"

I just kind of looked at Sarah and smirked.

ALSO

What even is the significance of the Julius Caesar argument? For me it was just a direct segway into questioning the existence of another popular fictional character who lived around that same time.

Ironic thing for a fundy to say, actually, considering some of the crap they do and believe.

The Julius Caesar argument isn't really the name of an argument, since other historical/literary figures are substituted, but the argument goes thus: We know about so-and-so through writings about him that came x generations after his existence. We only have y copies of those manuscripts, etc. The writings about Jesus were written ONLY z years after his death, and those writings include those of eyewitnesses. Also, we have THIS MANY pieces of manuscript evidence which far exceeds that of so-and-so. There's far more evidence of Jesus' existence than so-and-so's existence.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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12-05-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
I love when they throw the pathetic "how do you know so and so existed, for example, george washington?"

response is simple.

easy, george washington for example left physical proof of his existence...writings, residence, uniforms and clothing, was the president of the united states, people who liked and dislike him wrote of him, we have his letters etc..

Know what we have to prove jesus existed? nothing.

If I was positing that a man named John Tallywacker lived 2,000 years ago, married, had no children then died, and there was no proof of his existence, no one would care enough to say otherwise...but if I say John Tallywacker was the son of a mythical god, performed "miracles" like Benny Hinn on a world tour, was executed for being a fraud, then rose unseen and unwitnessed from the grave, causing a zombie invasion, and flew into the heavens and now lives in never never land until the perfect time to come back and bring all believers to never never land....I would expect you to say no way, prove it, show me evidence this John Tallywacker lived and performed miracles......see the difference? Drooling

invalid logic on his part.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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12-05-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
(12-05-2014 09:38 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 09:36 AM)Jasozz Wrote:  He's just your common jackass going through seminary. He thinks every person who isn't god-spewing blowhard needs to be constantly bullied until they BELIEVE.

While Sarah and I were sitting there he told some story about a guy he knows that stopped going to church when he started dating an atheist girl. His words were "if he wants to live a life of sin, that's his choice"

I just kind of looked at Sarah and smirked.

ALSO

What even is the significance of the Julius Caesar argument? For me it was just a direct segway into questioning the existence of another popular fictional character who lived around that same time.

Your brother sounds like a dick, sorry you have to put up with him.

He's a major dick. I'm legitimately saddened to be related to him.

On the flip-side, I told Sarah that she was unbelievably sexy when she was getting in my brother's face. About time someone shut him up.
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12-05-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
He also went on and on and on and on about moral subjectivity, and how it doesn't work because some people think what Hitler did was right, and how without a Moral Authority we would all just be killing each other.

I tried to argue from the standpoint of empathy and the fact that we don't even observe animals murdering each other horribly non-stop, and how his moral authority accounts for that, to which he changed subjects.

He CONTINUOUSLY used those "god works in mysterious ways" and "well the bible says so" lines that are just infuriating, because they answer nothing.
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12-05-2014, 09:48 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2014 10:00 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
Read your OP and then went off to read your other thread about your family troubles and then came back to this thread.

Just want to say, well done. As others have said, don't succumb to the blackmail because it won't stop, it will just get worse. You stood your ground.

It's hard I know but in the same way your parents and brother need to accept that you are an atheist, you just have to accept that they're idiots. If your Father wants to be ordained, you have spelled out all the difficulties and he still wants to go through with it, just accept it. When he doesn't accept that you are an atheist you then have the moral high ground pointing this out to him.

We each have our lives to lead. Lead your own life and be proud of yourself for shrugging off their bullshit. You're independent and have done well for yourself at an early age. They can't manipulate you unless you let them.
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12-05-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: So I guess I'm out now?
(12-05-2014 09:47 AM)Jasozz Wrote:  He also went on and on and on and on about moral subjectivity, and how it doesn't work because some people think what Hitler did was right, and how without a Moral Authority we would all just be killing each other.

I tried to argue from the standpoint of empathy and the fact that we don't even observe animals murdering each other horribly non-stop, and how his moral authority accounts for that, to which he changed subjects.

He CONTINUOUSLY used those "god works in mysterious ways" and "well the bible says so" lines that are just infuriating, because they answer nothing.
I'll wring his neck. Tongue
The Bible IS the claim.
Quoting from the claim is not evidence. Saying "the claim says so" does not support the claim.
Of COURSE the Bible says so! That's what a claim DOES! It SAYS SO! Now ya gotta substantiate what it is that the claim is saying... and repeating it or quoting other parts of it is not substantiating it; that's only more of the claim being a claim and "saying so."

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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