So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
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21-04-2013, 01:39 AM
So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
Ever had one of those days where you feel like a fucking piece of shit? Where you feel like you are a monster for thinking what you think and doing what you do, even if they are based on good, logical arguments?

No? Well you are lucky, because I did.

On Friday, the school hosted a person who was speaking out against abortion. She is a lawyer, and is in favor of the "no compromise, no exceptions" side of Pro-life. If you aren't familiar with the slogan, or just can't see the obvious, it means that abortion should be COMPLETELY outlawed. No rape victims getting it, nor people who would die if they didn't get it.

Now, her talk was basically her sharing her life story, and how it ties into abortion and how her mother was raped, and she was born. She then started to make appeals to emotions, and then she tried to guilt trip me (but it wasn't directly me, more or less pro-choicers) into buying the argument that if I was pro-choice, then I think she SHOULD have died.

Basically, I was picking out the logical flaws in her arguments left and right, and coming up with rebuttals and counter arguments. However, every time I dismantled her claims, assertions and illogical appeals to emotions, I felt this odd feeling in myself.

I felt as if what I was doing was devaluing her life.

Basically, I felt that I was the monster in the room. The one who said that her life worthless.

I was doing, and feeling this way during the whole time, and when the Q/A session came up, I was ready to being the first volley of my comments and questions, which included the mention of "What about if the birth of the Baby compromises the mother's, and its own safety? Is the death of two, according to you,humans worth NOT getting an abortion? What about if the baby is certain to get an illness that will be worse than death, or will kill it in a way that the pain is indescribable? Would an abortion be the better option, or would the needless suffering of the kid, and consequently the mother be the better option?"

But, I couldn't do it. I couldn't oppose her. I felt ashamed that I would oppose her, even though I believe sincerely that abortions should be legalized, not only for the right to a woman's body, but to save the future needless deaths that will arise from Back-ally abortions.

I mean, Christ. When did they get so good at putting people like me to shame?

And what does this mean for the people who already are pro-life? This will surely only bolster that whole "Holier than thou" mentality they already have.

Anybody else experience it?

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21-04-2013, 01:58 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
If her mother had had the abortion, she would not have been there to make you feel bad.

Pro-Choice FTW.

You could have gone with 'procedural' questions i.e...
How does she envision policing this?
How would a court decide whether a woman has deliberately or accidentally aborted?
Or will miscarriages be criminalised too?

Just sayin'

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21-04-2013, 02:36 AM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2013 02:52 AM by Luminon.)
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(21-04-2013 01:39 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I felt as if what I was doing was devaluing her life.

Basically, I felt that I was the monster in the room. The one who said that her life worthless.
We don't get worthy by getting born to our mothers. We get the right and a potential to become worthy and that is our job, not the mother's.

And just because good may result out of bad things, we should let bad bad things happen? Unwanted pregnancy is a bad thing. She made a mistake of taking it personally, identifying herself with it. I am the child, the fetus, the gametes, I am the rape or the teenage mistake. I am not bad, so whatever way I came about must not be bad either, or I would be worthless. If I am worthless, I might as well kill myself, or be hunted down by some Atheist commandos of death...
I think there had been serious emotional and relationship issues with her involuntary mother, perhaps even social stigma, otherwise she wouldn't become take this to schools so passionately. Religious label makes it legit.

(21-04-2013 01:39 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I mean, Christ. When did they get so good at putting people like me to shame?
We're social beings. We're wired to keep in line with public opinion. We are good at being but to shame, it prolongs survival.

(21-04-2013 01:39 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Anybody else experience it?
No, but there was an American woman from... Arkansas I think, visiting our local Lutheran youth group. Turns out she was the result of teenage pregnancy and also very pro-life. I remember it was around Christmas, so there was of course the Nativity story with all the nonsense that Seth addressed in his video. I think I just pointed out some pagan and astronomic origins of traditions. And when she asked if we have any Christmas traditions here, I mentioned a few of them, which are basically about divination. The Arkansas girl sure didn't look impressed by our Old Continent woodoo Smile

I don't remember details already, but nobody opposed her gross misinformation on abortion or Christmas or anything. There was no point, it's preaching to the converted. Churches are mostly self-suppliers of new people. Teenage pregnancy fills their ranks and guilt-trips the mothers and children to be as religious as possible. If you think unwanted pregnancy is bad, you want me killed!
If Christians believe in immortal spirit or soul, why do they care so much how does this soul gets a body, or the body's worth and purity? It's all about sex and population control. Too bad they want to take it to the general society and medical facilities, they have no right for that.
You've got great guts for standing up and speaking out among your own people, that's always harder. There's no winning in some situations, the harm has been already done.

What is more worth, the woman's free will, the right to choose time, place and a partner, the mental health, the stable and loving family for a wanted and planned child, or a lifetime of emotional problems and social stigma?

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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21-04-2013, 03:08 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
This is the problem with that whole "empathy" thing. It makes us worry about hurting others' feelings or "devaluing" their lives in some way. That can become incredibly obstructive.

Come on, little buddy. It's time to spend the Summer with uncle Miso. He'll learn you a thing or two about "FUCK people!" Thumbsup

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21-04-2013, 05:10 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
She won. You allowed yourself to be defeated by her emotional argument.

Gird your loins and re-enter the battle.

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21-04-2013, 07:53 AM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2013 06:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
Anyone who has forced or unprotected sex can go to the drug store, no matter what age now, and take a Plan B pill. It will PREVENT a pregnancy from even starting.
The "abortion debate" is a thing of the past. It's a non issue, in 2013.

It has been medically proven, and supported by professors and department heads of OBGYN, (Obstetrics and Gynecology), all over the world, that what were said to be "arbortifacients" are in fact not so, as the pregnancy has not even begun.

Did she even talk about Plan B ? If she's against Plan B, then she also has to say that not having ANY "possible" baby is a bad thing, and THAT means that since there are billions and trillions of "possible babies" being passed up every day, is she against THAT ?

It's bullshit. In 2013, humans should have planned pregnancies, that can be responsibly planned for, and taken care of. Not bred like mindless breeding machines. Her one anecdotal case is irrelevant. Would ANY live person say "I wish I were never born" ? Of course not. The point is irrelevant, and a red herring.

Taken to her logical conclusion, EVERY woman of child-bearing age RIGHT NOW, who is not pregnant, is preventing another live baby from being born. Dodgy
She's promoting rape. If you go rape a 12 year old, and she gets pregnant, it's good because a baby results.
Those Catholics sure are desperate to reproduce, (and they sure have some idiot lawyers).

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21-04-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
I really hate it when people talk about already-born people (in this case, the speaker) and say "what if ___ had been aborted?" or "I'm so glad I wasn't aborted." If she'd been aborted, she wouldn't be here to be talking about it, never have developed a personality and had a life, so she can STFU.


Quote:I felt as if what I was doing was devaluing her life.
That's her whole point, to make you feel like shit, and you have NO REASON to feel like shit. But as Chas said, she won, you were defeated by her appeals to emotion You cannot compare the life of a grown woman to a zygote. Not even when the grown woman is a POS.

Well, here I go again: I have 2 friends, in high school the guy knocked up the girl and they kept it. They never discussed abortion, and the kid is a wonderful 15 year old boy and I'm very fond of him now. The parents are no longer together.

I am pro-abortion (in the sense that, sometimes, it's the best option and should not be stigmatized, not in the sense that some fools should use it as primary birth control) and I have said so. The father of the kid tried this shit on me: "What if [girl] and I had had an abortion? Then we wouldn't have had [son]!" This is complete bullshit, appeal to emotion, and you can't even compare a teenager to a zygote. And they had never even discussed abortion, so it wasn't even an option. I told him this was bullshit, and he said I am cold and cynical (true, but beside the point).

Anyway, this is all the argument of the "potential" of the fertilized egg. As I've said in the prolife/pro-choice thread, this assumes that being born is always better than not being born, which I also disagree with. Sometimes, I think it might be better if the parents abort and wait and maybe later on they might decide to have a child together and it might work out better for everyone involved. Also, there are so many unwanted babies in the world, why do they want every pregnancy carried to term? And why do they care about zygotes and not actual children?
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21-04-2013, 11:48 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
Most of their arguments rely on emotions. Instead of trying to debunk hers, bring up better points to avoid her emotional traps.

There are a lot of kids without homes.
A lot of kids never will get adopted.
Women still die in childbirth.
What worked for you won't for others.
Some families will struggle and break under the pressure of a kid.
Sometimes the kid doesn't comes out healthy.

ect. I applaud you though for tolerating her though, I can't stand them. I would've slapped a ho (not physically, of course)

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21-04-2013, 01:59 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2013 07:34 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(21-04-2013 11:41 AM)amyb Wrote:  If she'd been aborted, she wouldn't be here to be talking about it, never have developed a personality and had a life, so she can STFU.

Exactly. The neural tube does not develop in a human zygote until about the 28th day. So until then, at the very earliest it's a clump of cells, with the potential to become a human. The Caudal neuropore closes around the 25 - 30th day. The Rostral neuropore closes about day 25.
Ref : TW Sadler. Longmanʼs Medical Embryology. 9th Ed. Lippincott Williams and Wilkins, Phili, 2004 p 90.

It's not even implanted in the uterine wall for about 2 weeks, (I think).
Most fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted. 60- 80 % of fertilizations fail to implant.

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21-04-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
Appeals to emotion piss me off. I don't let people manipulate me in that way, mainly because I'm not an emotional person at all. The reason they upset me, though, is because of the effect they have on other people, people who are manipulated by these things. They act like abortion is pretty much the same thing as infanticide, and that annoys me.

But if we have to talk about personhood, I certainly wouldn't call it a person before the thing has a neural tube, and above all, I value the life, happiness, etc of the woman (an established human being with personhood) over the existence of a clump of cells in her uterus. And it amazes me how many other people do not feel that way, because it just seems like the only sane way to look at it.
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