So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
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02-11-2013, 08:53 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(20-05-1974 08:47 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  That is the most beautiful thing I've EVER heard!
Weeping

Hmmmm.....yeah. I was a bit drunk last night. Dodgy

I always get all sentimental when I drink. Sorry. Rolleyes

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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02-11-2013, 08:55 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 08:27 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 08:16 AM)Dom Wrote:  Hah, would that be because you are confused about the difference between truth and facts?

Tell me how you define truth versus fact, and we'll be able to talk with common ground.

Facts are part of a truth, with the other part being faith in the facts as truth.

So... Facts are truth, but truth isn't always fact?
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02-11-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 08:55 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 08:27 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Facts are part of a truth, with the other part being faith in the facts as truth.

So... Facts are truth, but truth isn't always fact?

You're on to it. Facts are necessary to truth, but a truth needs faith in the facts to make it meaningful.
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02-11-2013, 09:01 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 08:53 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(20-05-1974 08:47 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  That is the most beautiful thing I've EVER heard!
Weeping

Hmmmm.....yeah. I was a bit drunk last night. Dodgy

I always get all sentimental when I drink. Sorry. Rolleyes

Angry I guess I'll take my like back... just kidding! Big Grin
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02-11-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 08:58 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 08:55 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  So... Facts are truth, but truth isn't always fact?

You're on to it. Facts are necessary to truth, but a truth needs faith in the facts to make it meaningful.

I still don't really get it. Truthful and factual are synonymous to me.
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02-11-2013, 09:14 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 08:27 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 08:16 AM)Dom Wrote:  Hah, would that be because you are confused about the difference between truth and facts?

Tell me how you define truth versus fact, and we'll be able to talk with common ground.

Facts are part of a truth, with the other part being faith in the facts as truth.

Ok, facts are facts, no belief required.

There is fog outside my window. Fact. I can see it, it is there, I don't need any belief.

If you ask me if there is fog out there and I tell the truth, I will say yes. It is a fact and hence it is true, no belief required.

You may think I am lying and not telling the truth, so then you are not sure if the presented fact is actually a fact.

So, what you are saying is that you do not believe that it is a truthful fact that a fetus initially has no brain or central nervous system?

Or, you don't think it is a truthful fact that without a central nervous system and a brain there is no pain?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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02-11-2013, 09:30 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 09:14 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 08:27 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Facts are part of a truth, with the other part being faith in the facts as truth.

So, what you are saying is that you do not believe that it is a truthful fact that a fetus initially has no brain or central nervous system?

Or, you don't think it is a truthful fact that without a central nervous system and a brain there is no pain?

It is a undisputed fact that a baby is without a central nervous system when it's a fetus.

It is not truth that the baby is not alive because it lacks the CNS. But the truth for you and me is different because I have faith in fact that the baby being alive and a human, making for me the truth being that abortion is murder, while you have faith in the fact that the baby has no CNS (and so on and so forth) making for you the truth that abortion is ok.
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02-11-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 09:30 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 09:14 AM)Dom Wrote:  So, what you are saying is that you do not believe that it is a truthful fact that a fetus initially has no brain or central nervous system?

Or, you don't think it is a truthful fact that without a central nervous system and a brain there is no pain?

It is a undisputed fact that a baby is without a central nervous system when it's a fetus.

It is not truth that the baby is not alive because it lacks the CNS. But the truth for you and me is different because I have faith in fact that the baby being alive and a human, making for me the truth being that abortion is murder, while you have faith in the fact that the baby has no CNS (and so on and so forth) making for you the truth that abortion is ok.

No faith needed - there is no CNS or brain. It is proven. It is a fact, it needs no belief.

The difference between you and me is that you think that brain dead tissue is alive, and I say it is dead because we pronounce people dead when there is no brain function, and we bury them.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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02-11-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 09:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 09:30 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  It is a undisputed fact that a baby is without a central nervous system when it's a fetus.

It is not truth that the baby is not alive because it lacks the CNS. But the truth for you and me is different because I have faith in fact that the baby being alive and a human, making for me the truth being that abortion is murder, while you have faith in the fact that the baby has no CNS (and so on and so forth) making for you the truth that abortion is ok.

No faith needed - there is no CNS or brain. It is proven. It is a fact, it needs no belief.

The difference between you and me is that you think that brain dead tissue is alive, and I say it is dead because we pronounce people dead when there is no brain function, and we bury them.

Without faith in a fact as truth, the fact is a fact and not a truth that ca be argued for or against. The Buddha taught that there were undisputed truths, but these are very basic, so many truths are argued about being valid. So what I said is true, and what you said is true, but who is right is me to me because my truth is true to me and your truth is true to you, so really the facts are useless when standing alone.

Ergo, it is true that babies are human beings when they are fetuses.
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02-11-2013, 09:51 AM
RE: So. I had a presentation about Abortion at school.
(02-11-2013 09:41 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 09:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  No faith needed - there is no CNS or brain. It is proven. It is a fact, it needs no belief.

The difference between you and me is that you think that brain dead tissue is alive, and I say it is dead because we pronounce people dead when there is no brain function, and we bury them.

Without faith in a fact as truth, the fact is a fact and not a truth that ca be argued for or against. The Buddha taught that there were undisputed truths, but these are very basic, so many truths are argued about being valid. So what I said is true, and what you said is true, but who is right is me to me because my truth is true to me and your truth is true to you, so really the facts are useless when standing alone.

Ergo, it is true that babies are human beings when they are fetuses.

Word salad.

The fact is that a fetus without a nervous system is not a person. It might develop into a person, or it might not.

Facts are true whether you accept them or not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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