So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
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23-03-2012, 09:18 PM
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Bye Zat Sad

I will miss your thought-provoking posts. I have the greatest respect for the older and wiser people of our societies and our youth should be grateful for the knowledge passed on but unfortunately for the most part, they aren't.

I understand you thrive for a 'utopian' society but for the most part people just don't care and/or want to listen as they are happy in their own little worlds thinking their societies are just 'peachey'.

Good luck and take care Heart

Humankind Dodgy (a total misnomer)
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23-03-2012, 09:42 PM
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
In all walks of life (politics, management, personal relationships etc.) there are different forms of comminucation and different ways to communicate. Why would an internet forum be any different.
It's your last forum but it's my first. Maybe I will feel the same in 12 years.
Problem-solving is my thing too. It's what I do for a living. Solutions to problems should lead to change but change will not happen without authority; the power to implement change is what matters.
Fora (sorry Erx, forii) will not change the world.
But we can spread ideas.
Is that not worth staying for?

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23-03-2012, 10:19 PM
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
(23-03-2012 09:42 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Fora (sorry Erx, forii) will not change the world.
But we can spread ideas.
Is that not worth staying for?
Spot on! You can discuss issues, share, and even come up with new ideas here but that doesn't actually change anything in the real world.

People taking action changes things.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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23-03-2012, 10:29 PM
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
[Image: 6a00d834520ed269e201348543cc61970c-500wi] [Image: good.jpg]

... and all of your witty yet insightful posts.

Take care, and stay strong Smile

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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24-03-2012, 01:11 PM
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
(23-03-2012 01:09 PM)Zat Wrote:  OK, I had my R&R and enough time to think it through.

The comments I got for my “communication rules” were the last drop in the bucket.

People don’t want to communicate – they want to vent, chit-chat, hear their own voices, go on ego-trips, put each other down, have a trivia-pursuit social club.

Communication is a problem-solving exercise.

It has strict common-sense rules, without which no problem is solved, no consensus is built, talk becomes a pointless exercise, going around in circles, leading nowhere.

The state of the world around us is ample proof of what happens when people don’t know how to talk to each other, how to solve problems.

For a while, I thought that Internet Forums would give powerless people a new tool to, at least in words, solve the world’s problems.

This is not the case.

I have participated in various forums for the last 12 years.

This was the last one – there won’t be any more.

I really tried, very hard this time, to communicate.

Simple things, like violence and killing is bad, exploitation should not be tolerated, life is so incredibly simple and could be so unbelievably beautiful, if only we used critical judgment, basic principles, logic, our sense of fairness and compassion.

Maybe some of it got through, maybe not.

However, I am too old for so much hard work and so many disappointments.

This truly is my last post on any forums.

My beloved wife, my cats and my greenhouse with its ripening tomatoes are enough to live for – I don’t need anything else.

"So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!"
I say good riddance to your pontificating and unwillingness to discuss when someone disagrees with you. You exchange a couple of comments then retreat, accusing the other party of being unreasonable.
I'm not sad to hear the last of you. Again.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-03-2012, 11:51 PM
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Again, I disagree whole heartedly with a lot said in your last post, still. However, I am sad to see you go and that's what this is about. I actually did learn a thing or two from your posts- they helped me explore exactly how I feel, even though it was a result of a feeling of disagreement and unwelcome.

Enjoy your wife, plants and cats- surely they are not the big bad world you speak of.
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25-03-2012, 05:59 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2012 09:52 AM by Zat.)
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
(24-03-2012 01:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  unwillingness to discuss when someone disagrees with you. You exchange a couple of comments then retreat, accusing the other party of being unreasonable.
...

PS. For the record, and as a reminder:

As I said in previous threads:

"Communication seems to be the hardest learned skill for most of us. We tend to use undefined terms, unspecified premises, different sets of facts and/or pseudo-facts, we get emotional, we get off on trigger words, we miss half or more of the arguments of our partner, we totally misunderstand those that we don't miss, we go around in circles, we never resolve anything. The big question, of course, considering how bad we are at it, why do we still keep trying?"

...and...

"Zatamon’s rules for clear and productive communication:

1. Read every line in every post of the thread before replying -- don't just scan.
2. If something is unclear, ask questions/definitions before jumping to conclusions.
3. Don’t put words never said into the mouth of the person you are replying to and NEVER alter a quote
4. Don’t let trigger words with bad association (for you) divert you from what was actually said
5. Make sure you use logic in a clear, unbroken line, leading from premises to conclusions
6. Give yourself time to THINK it over, before flying off the handle
7. Look at all the pros and cons of the issue, from as many different angles as you can
8. Make sure you research the facts your reply is based on
9. Provide evidence (if available)
10. State what you DO agree with (and why), as well as what you don’t agree with (and why).
11. Admit it when you realize that you were wrong, made a mistake or were unfair to someone. This may be the hardest for most people, but it is absolutely essential if we want to get anywhere with talking to each other. "

If you don't find these rules to be the absolute minimum common-sense communications skills (that should have been acquired in the process of growing up) then you and I don't speak the same language and will never understand each other.

Back to Chas's complaint:

When I find myself in a conversation with someone who does not speak the same language, it is best to disengage, instead of wasting more time going around in circles.

Of course they get offended when you do that, but that can not be helped, unless you are a trained psychologist, knowing what buttons to push, in what order, to break through the communication barrier.

I am a Physicist, not a Psychiatrist -- I can speak 'rational', not 'manipulative'.

And, of course, there are the very few who are downright dishonest and argue in bad faith when it comes to their cherished beliefs, by

1. Willful ignorance (refusing to look at documented facts)
2. Willful irrationality (when they refuse to follow logic where it inevitably leads)
3. Asking questions and then ignoring the answers
4. Refusing to make an effort to think for themselves
5. Asserting that the Earth is flat and god does exist.

There are other ways of being dishonest and arguing in bad faith but these are the main ones.

It is especially unforgivable when the person is otherwise quite bright, in areas other than their blind-spot(s).

And these pervasive communication problems are, precisely, why I decided to leave all forums. Trying to communicate in sign language and smoke signals is too much work for me.

However, I have to admit that TTA is by far the best of all forums I have seen during the last 12 years of intensive participation.

I do thank all of you who said those warm and friendly words of good bye -- I did enjoy many wonderful conversations with every one of you. Smile
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25-03-2012, 06:05 AM
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Respect brother.

Maybe we will meet again.

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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25-03-2012, 09:32 AM
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
(25-03-2012 05:59 AM)Zat Wrote:  If you don't find these rules to be the absolute minimum common-sense communications skills (that should have been acquired in the process of growing up) then you and I don't speak the same language and will never understand each other.


Sorry to find fault with your TTA epitaph but are not communication skills two-way?

It is our ability to tolerate and accommodate those lesser communicators, that speak not the same language; those that do not follow "the rules", that marks our greatness, our wisdom and our dignity.

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25-03-2012, 09:48 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2012 02:16 PM by Zat.)
RE: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
(25-03-2012 09:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  It is our ability to tolerate and accommodate those lesser communicators, that speak not the same language; those that do not follow "the rules", that marks our greatness, our wisdom and our dignity.
...
Absolutely correct.

I admire and envy those who can.

Alas, I am not one of them, and I am too old and too tired to learn a new language. Best if I just retire from the field.

That still leaves love, science, playing classical music on my violin, wood carving, poetry and tomatoes for me. Seems to be enough for a few more years! Big Grin
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