So Why Not?
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05-04-2012, 07:17 PM
So Why Not?
I have not spent any time discussing the topic of creation with atheists. I have questions. Please set aside if you will any disgust or hatred for organized religion or the God I believe in, if you have any, for the sake of discussion. Of course, this is merely a request and I understand if you cannot contain but feel you must unload the frustration you have upon this thread.

Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?

I understand that there are many, who using logic, come to the conclusion that it isn't necessary to have a god or deity to explain what they see but my question is do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not possible?

Thanks in advance,

Gary
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05-04-2012, 07:20 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  I have not spent any time discussing the topic of creation with atheists. I have questions. Please set aside if you will any disgust or hatred for organized religion or the God I believe in, if you have any, for the sake of discussion. Of course, this is merely a request and I understand if you cannot contain but feel you must unload the frustration you have upon this thread.

Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?

I understand that there are many, who using logic, come to the conclusion that it isn't necessary to have a god or deity to explain what they see but my question is do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not possible?

Thanks in advance,

Gary
It most definitely is possible in a sense. But no more possible than the FSM being the creator or Zeus or me for that matter.

I don't see not being able to actively disprove something as a reason to believe it. If I did I'd believe in a lot of far-fetched ideas.

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05-04-2012, 07:24 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(05-04-2012 07:20 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  I have not spent any time discussing the topic of creation with atheists. I have questions. Please set aside if you will any disgust or hatred for organized religion or the God I believe in, if you have any, for the sake of discussion. Of course, this is merely a request and I understand if you cannot contain but feel you must unload the frustration you have upon this thread.

Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?

I understand that there are many, who using logic, come to the conclusion that it isn't necessary to have a god or deity to explain what they see but my question is do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not possible?

Thanks in advance,

Gary
It most definitely is possible in a sense. But no more possible than the FSM being the creator or Zeus or me for that matter.

I don't see not being able to actively disprove something as a reason to believe it. If I did I'd believe in a lot of far-fetched ideas.
Absolutely, well spoken. And I agree but want to hear what those who oppose the idea have to say. Thank for replying.

Gary
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05-04-2012, 07:28 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Yeah it's totally possible. No one says it isn't.
The problem with this way of thinking is you can't just stop with one explanation since its entirely hypothetical.
You should fully flesh it out.
Is it possible that a monkey did it in one of its dreams? Yes. Is it possible that god is playing games with everyone to see how many people die? You bet.
Is it possible that the devil actually created
All the fossils and pre aged the entire earth so we don't believe in gods message, and that god somehow didn't notice so he didn't feel the need to correct this deception? Yeppers.

But why? That's always the question I get to.

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05-04-2012, 07:55 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(05-04-2012 07:28 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Yeah it's totally possible. No one says it isn't.
The problem with this way of thinking is you can't just stop with one explanation since its entirely hypothetical.
You should fully flesh it out.
Is it possible that a monkey did it in one of its dreams? Yes. Is it possible that god is playing games with everyone to see how many people die? You bet.
Is it possible that the devil actually created
All the fossils and pre aged the entire earth so we don't believe in gods message, and that god somehow didn't notice so he didn't feel the need to correct this deception? Yeppers.

But why? That's always the question I get to.
Excellent response and question. "But why?" and it has to make sense or it is nothing. And even if it makes sense it doesn't mean that it is true.

I am going to come back to this to see if I have a "But why?" answer in me. But right now I have my 11 month old with downsyndrome on my lap making this quite difficult to type.

Gary
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05-04-2012, 08:02 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Sure, it's possible, but it's not probable. It's much less probable than the existing scientific theories IMO.

The christian god serves to explain everything people haven't been able to figure out in the last few hundred centuries.

There are tons of religions that try to answer the age old question where everything came from. The truth is that we just don't know.

What we do know and can observe ourselves in our own life times is that things change all the time to adapt to new conditions. It stands to reason that this has always been that way.

I don't believe things just because they are possible, I would have to believe in every god man ever created because it's an etherial concept, it can never be proven or disproven. I would have to believe in ghosts and fairies and witches and the Loch Ness Monster and Big Foot and what not, because I can't prove they don't exist.

The fact that people the world over were always looking to explain the inexplicable gave rise to lots of gods. Every religion is convinced their god is the one who done it.

I think in this day and age, we have learned a lot more about the world than we knew in the times most religions originated in. We have found real causes for previously mysterious events and things. We can even clone people. We have begun to understand life itself. We can create life itself.

If by creation you mean the origin of the universe, there are only theories. No one can prove exactly what happened, and maybe we never will be able to do this.

Why can't it be explained with a deity? Of course it can. A deity is the perfect thing to explain the inexplicable. You then call it the "god of the gaps", the theory that fills all the gaps in knowledge with a being with super powers.

Make this being omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient and you can totally explain anything whatsoever.

But, like nature, this being cannot be benevolent. Just think about it, I am not even going to go into the old testament which portrays a horrific war god. But take a hurricane, wipes out houses and kills people and leaves lives in havoc. So, god made it. He works in mysterious ways - and doesn't give a damn about the people he created? Why would he create them? Why would he create a world and a universe? What's in it for him? Is he just bored? Are his son and the holy ghost not enough company? It just makes no sense at all! Oh yes, the mysterious ways again I guess.

So, while I think it is certainly possible that a god created the universe and everything in it, and he could have done so without conflicting with science actually, a god with all the described powers who allows his creations to suffer needlessly is not a nice being. He cannot be benevolent. That is a contradiction you cannot fix.

Let me express that I respect you for coming here to discuss. I love inquisitive minds, and to me, theist or atheist is not what defines people. It is difficult at best to find theists who are willing to explore and debate. I barely remember being religious, I stopped believing when I was 10. So, these conversations are interesting to me. I hope I don't offend you as a person - I am rather outspoken but I have no interest in deconverting you or anyone else. I am just curious.

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05-04-2012, 08:15 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Thanks for your reply Dom. I have a few things I would like to address but no time at the moment. I just put the baby down but now I have to go to bed. More thoughts on this later.

Gary
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05-04-2012, 08:27 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Oh, I see what you're saying now. Nothing. Big Grin

Why not? Occam's razor, conservation law, chaos theory, complexity, emergence... yada, yada, yada. And the same thing always happens, the last bastion of the desperate theist - why can't god exist. You cannot say that he doesn't!

Why not? Because I serve her purpose, not his. Because there ain't nothing your imaginary god can do that my Gwynnies cannot do better. Because she's my Gwynnies. So why can't you worship my Gwynnies? Because it never ends. Or rather, it ends when one kills another for their god. That is what you intend, to kill the notion of a non-existent god, to impose what limits you upon another. For what, your salvation? Hmmn.

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05-04-2012, 09:13 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  I have not spent any time discussing the topic of creation with atheists. I have questions. Please set aside if you will any disgust or hatred for organized religion or the God I believe in, if you have any, for the sake of discussion. Of course, this is merely a request and I understand if you cannot contain but feel you must unload the frustration you have upon this thread.

Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?

I understand that there are many, who using logic, come to the conclusion that it isn't necessary to have a god or deity to explain what they see but my question is do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not possible?

Thanks in advance,

Gary
First off, you're poisoning the well with your "unproven theory" comment or intentionally trying to make an oxymoron. You do realize that before something can become a theory it goes through a shit load of ridicule, testing, examination and of course all of the evidence glaring you right in the face.

Anything's possible as long as it falls within natural laws. Monkeys could fly out of my ass, could be miniature or really large (ouch). Basically what you get from this sort of thinking is a world of whatever you could imagine. Well you are in luck, science is constantly doing that. Each time we imagine some cool idea science is creating it or thinking of ways to create it.

Before you can posit a god into the gaps you will first need to prove a god exists. Why not posit a pile of turds in there, why not say pete the magic dragon, why not a hobgoblin,....and so on. This argument can go on and on and...*insert energizer bunny*....

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05-04-2012, 11:25 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  I have not spent any time discussing the topic of creation with atheists. I have questions. Please set aside if you will any disgust or hatred for organized religion or the God I believe in, if you have any, for the sake of discussion. Of course, this is merely a request and I understand if you cannot contain but feel you must unload the frustration you have upon this thread.

Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?

I understand that there are many, who using logic, come to the conclusion that it isn't necessary to have a god or deity to explain what they see but my question is do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not possible?

Thanks in advance,

Gary
What you are talking about is the god of the gaps, and each few years his gaps keep getting smaller.
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