So Why Not?
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24-05-2012, 06:21 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(24-05-2012 03:56 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  
(24-05-2012 03:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  In other words, god enjoys trapping people in ignorance?
People are not trapped. They choose to be in ignorance.

Gary


No they don't. I couldn't start praying to an invisible friend, it makes no sense, it would be fake and a lie. If there is a god and he actually cares about individuals, that would certainly do no good.

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24-05-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(24-05-2012 06:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  No they don't. I couldn't start praying to an invisible friend, it makes no sense, it would be fake and a lie. If there is a god and he actually cares about individuals, that would certainly do no good.
They choose to be in ignorance by refusing even the slightest of chances for the opposing side's to be correct. It's very important to give everything a possible chance, a certain probability. None of which end in 0.
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24-05-2012, 06:40 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(24-05-2012 06:34 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(24-05-2012 06:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  No they don't. I couldn't start praying to an invisible friend, it makes no sense, it would be fake and a lie. If there is a god and he actually cares about individuals, that would certainly do no good.
They choose to be in ignorance by refusing even the slightest of chances for the opposing side's to be correct. It's very important to give everything a possible chance, a certain probability. None of which end in 0.


I don't refuse the tiniest possibility of there being a god. There may be a god, there is no proof that there isn't.

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24-05-2012, 06:41 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(24-05-2012 05:46 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  I have not spent any time discussing the topic of creation with atheists. I have questions. Please set aside if you will any disgust or hatred for organized religion or the God I believe in, if you have any, for the sake of discussion. Of course, this is merely a request and I understand if you cannot contain but feel you must unload the frustration you have upon this thread.

Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?

I understand that there are many, who using logic, come to the conclusion that it isn't necessary to have a god or deity to explain what they see but my question is do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not possible?

Thanks in advance,

Gary
There's no way to know that a god or gods is not responsible for the creation of the the universe. There's no way to prove that it didn't happen. There's no evidence to suggest that it's impossible.

You already know why we don't assume it's true based on skepticism. You personally also don't assume that Islam is true just because you can't disprove it, so I'm sure you see where we're coming from.

Of course you may answer this with an attempt to disprove Islam, but I promise you, any attempt will be answered with a similar attempt to disprove Christianity using the same exact argument, and I'll happily expose the double-standard you apply to evidence.
I don't know much of anything about Islam. I only know that when I made a request to know if there was a god at all, I was answered by the God of the bible. I was a healthy skeptic. I figured if there was a god then he/she/it would be able to reveal their self/selves unto me. I had some mere claims of others around me who claimed a belief in a god. I chose to request to know though I did not believe. I didn't expect results but I got them. Just as with any science, I can only offer my understanding of my experimentation with god unto others that they might repeat the process with similar results. All I know is that I honestly didn't know but had an honest desire to know the truth and had no bias against anything that was revealed. So expose away and show all of my double standards that I have. My only desire is to share with others that which has been revealed unto me but just like everything in science, you don't get the results unless you preform the same experiments.

Gary
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24-05-2012, 06:44 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(24-05-2012 06:40 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(24-05-2012 06:34 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  They choose to be in ignorance by refusing even the slightest of chances for the opposing side's to be correct. It's very important to give everything a possible chance, a certain probability. None of which end in 0.


I don't refuse the tiniest possibility of there being a god. There may be a god, there is no proof that there isn't.
That's good, but we were talking about them, and they for the most part don't take into account that probability, so we must make them aware of that probability before we can have an intelligent debate Tongue
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24-05-2012, 06:50 PM
RE: So Why Not?
The whole filling in god for any gaps gives me a headache... it just seems to be the most twisted thing ever--as it only seems to apply to science or anything that's "against religion" or otherwise can show the problems with it. I have never heard people say "I don't know how many miles it is to Paris, but god knows because he made it, and that's all that matters!" Actually, anything other than creationism even sounds a bit.... odd... God made the universe... sounds "fine". God knows how the sun works sounds.... "okay" God knows the distance of two places, 2+2=4.... sounds really odd...


It's like saying god knows/did it/etc is more like saying "I have no idea, and that terrifies me! So I will say I really do know, and the answer will be beyond us because it is meant to be" Yet... it still doesn't apply to numbers, facts, history.... only science (well, as far as I've ever heard it). I don't hear students say "I can't figure out math! But god made math, so I don't need to know it!" (well, maybe some have said this). So it seems to be more of a "I learned it as a child, don't steal santa from me!" I mean "innocence" or something, not santa... sorry, mistype lol. But yeah... it just rubs me wrong. It just seems so fear-based to use a god to fill in holes in knowledge.
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24-05-2012, 06:57 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(24-05-2012 06:50 PM)elemts Wrote:  The whole filling in god for any gaps gives me a headache... it just seems to be the most twisted thing ever--as it only seems to apply to science or anything that's "against religion" or otherwise can show the problems with it. I have never heard people say "I don't know how many miles it is to Paris, but god knows because he made it, and that's all that matters!" Actually, anything other than creationism even sounds a bit.... odd... God made the universe... sounds "fine". God knows how the sun works sounds.... "okay" God knows the distance of two places, 2+2=4.... sounds really odd...


It's like saying god knows/did it/etc is more like saying "I have no idea, and that terrifies me! So I will say I really do know, and the answer will be beyond us because it is meant to be" Yet... it still doesn't apply to numbers, facts, history.... only science (well, as far as I've ever heard it). I don't hear students say "I can't figure out math! But god made math, so I don't need to know it!" (well, maybe some have said this). So it seems to be more of a "I learned it as a child, don't steal santa from me!" I mean "innocence" or something, not santa... sorry, mistype lol. But yeah... it just rubs me wrong. It just seems so fear-based to use a god to fill in holes in knowledge.
Absolutely. The whole god of the gaps thing is a slap in the face to God.

Gary
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24-05-2012, 08:28 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(24-05-2012 06:44 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(24-05-2012 06:40 PM)Dom Wrote:  I don't refuse the tiniest possibility of there being a god. There may be a god, there is no proof that there isn't.
That's good, but we were talking about them, and they for the most part don't take into account that probability, so we must make them aware of that probability before we can have an intelligent debate Tongue


Who are "they"?

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24-05-2012, 09:03 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2012 09:12 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: So Why Not?
(24-05-2012 06:41 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  I don't know much of anything about Islam. I only know that when I made a request to know if there was a god at all, I was answered by the God of the bible.

That's a good rebuttal, because it doesn't allow for Islam to be true, too. However, it's still logically bad. Allow me to present the two main problems with this argument...

The first is in interpretation: how do you know that your answer was from God and not a mistake in your ability to interpret your thoughts? Here I'm assuming that God spoke to you internally, because otherwise you'd have some concrete evidence that skeptics can do something with, and we're never presented with this.

The second problem is that this isn't compatible with traits associated with God. An all-knowing being understands the inefficiency of reaching one person at a time -- of course we could all have similar experiences, but we don't, so He must be hoping to reach us through your experience. An all-powerful God could make these personal experiences very clear and unambiguous, but they aren't -- His supposed messages to us come through the same medium that our internal thoughts come from, and there's no way to distinguish one voice from the other, especially if you believe in silly things like demons or other entities that could put thoughts in your head from the outside. A just God would not give special revelation to some and less evidence to others, especially if the stakes are as high as you assume they are.

Let me posit a scenario for you. Let's assume that Islam is true: Allah is real and so are fallen angels, all in rebellion to Allah. You ask "God" if he exists and you get a reply from a fallen angel (who doesn't want you to know the truth of Allah) along the lines of "Yes, I am real and I am God". Because you have no way of knowing the source of this thought, even assuming that it was a real unambiguous and audible voice heard in your head, you simply put your faith in this fallen angel and believe him like a sucker. Now of course you don't think this happened because of faith... and not for any other reason. Having faith makes you open to con artists. Being a skeptic prevents that. I know what I prefer between the two.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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24-05-2012, 10:18 PM
RE: So Why Not?
I think about it this way, if I were to wake up tomorrow with memory completely erased (with the exception of my language skills) what would I think of the world? What would compel me to believe in anything other than what is around me and what I can see and experience? I can still go out and collect fossils and I can see that most of the fossils have no extant representations. I could deduce from this that the fossils must be much older. But what possible evidence could exist to show a god(s)? On top of that, what evidence would compel me to believe in any one of the prophets of this god (other than the man-made evidence, aka the bible, that I no longer have at my disposal)?

It really isn't all that complex a concept to not believe in god. God is a claim made upon no evidence and atheism is the rejection of that claim. No atheist is saying it is impossible (well some might) but they are saying it has no factual basis in reality.

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