So Why Not?
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25-05-2012, 04:12 PM
RE: So Why Not?
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25-05-2012, 04:18 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Dom, I have been doing some thinking where you are concerned and have concluded that I cannot be of any help to you as though you will not deny that it is possible that there be a god or gods, you have already concluded that you will never accept the God that I serve due to what you see in the Old Testament scriptures. I am not sure if any amount of reasoning with you about why it had to happen that way would ever leave you with the impression that God is just in ordering the slaughter of babies and pregnant women. Therefore it seems to me that I would only be wasting your time and mine by seeking to reveal the truth about how you get from the garden of Eden to the war torn earth and God remaining just and righteous in all of it. You seem to have concluded that it is impossible for it to be true. Maybe God will change that for you.

Gary


Gary
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25-05-2012, 04:29 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(25-05-2012 04:18 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Dom, I have been doing some thinking where you are concerned and have concluded that I cannot be of any help to you as though you will not deny that it is possible that there be a god or gods, you have already concluded that you will never accept the God that I serve due to what you see in the Old Testament scriptures. I am not sure if any amount of reasoning with you about why it had to happen that way would ever leave you with the impression that God is just in ordering the slaughter of babies and pregnant women. Therefore it seems to me that I would only be wasting your time and mine by seeking to reveal the truth about how you get from the garden of Eden to the war torn earth and God remaining just and righteous in all of it. You seem to have concluded that it is impossible for it to be true. Maybe God will change that for you.

Gary


Gary
The issues and arguments you don't appear to recognize are that there is no objective evidence for the existence of any gods, and there is plenty of circumstantial (at least) evidence against the existence of any beneficent gods.
The absence of evidence for a supreme being is pretty much the evidence of absence.

I (and others) don't understand how the Bible or Christian apologetics can be convincing to people.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-05-2012, 04:45 PM
RE: So Why Not?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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25-05-2012, 07:16 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(25-05-2012 04:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I used the example of Islam because it's something you don't believe in (just as I don't believe in Christianity), so it's a good exercise to put you in my shoes, but you seem to be incapable of seeing this from my perspective. You still insist on assuming the conclusion to form your premises. You state that I don't know your God, as if omniscience, omnipotence, and justice are traits that I myself attributed to God all by myself. You also make it sound like I have to understand God to know what these traits are or how they apply logically to the things that we do know about God. Why do you keep attacking me on the basis of my unbelief? It hardly matters if I believe in your God or not. That has no relevance on whether or not I've drawn logical conclusions about Him from my premises.

The difference being that you at least know about my God and have somewhat of an understanding where I do not share this in common about Islam so it should come as no surprise that I cannot see things from your perspective. If I were to have spent time studying Islam and trying to understand it then maybe but that isn't the case.

I wasn't trying to attack you based upon your unbelief but marveling at your seeming insistence that you know and understand God. I believe that if you truly knew and understood God then you would have a different perspective. I agree, to an extent, that belief is unnecessary to draw a logical conclusion that is based in the attributes of God. But you end up with conclusions that God himself doesn't share such as addressing each individual on an individual basis. You see it one way and he sees it another.

Quote:Now you may say (and probably will) that I'm attacking you on your belief, and to a degree that's true. I'm insisting that you can't see past your bias. Every single rebuttal you make to my arguments (that would be the "argument" found in the second definition from this link, the one pertaining to debate) is just an uncited assertion that simply states what you believe to be true -- from the nature of demons to God's intentions -- and assertion after assertion that I misunderstand your God. I don't. I simply don't see him through the same filter (read: bias) that you do.

I expect you to bring the ax to the root as there is no better way to bring down the tree. The tedious removal of branches leaves the tree alive. Thanks for clearing up the definition of the word argument for me.

Not seeing him through the same filter I do is what causes you to be in error. My bias is based upon an obedience to the precepts found within the pages of scripture. What you don't seem to understand is that the very God who created you has made the creation in such a way that reality is only truly understood through obedience unto him. Pretty smart move if you ask me. My assertions are rooted in what God has revealed unto me as true as I have become obedient unto him. Citing scripture for support is simply useless with someone who is unwilling to submit themselves unto the possibility of Gods existence.

Quote:Finally, please don't make the tired assumption that I must be an atheist because I want to disobey God ("You may not understand because you don't choose to obey him"). Christians can and do disobey God, and there's no need to disbelieve in order to sin. At an earlier point in my life I thought the same way that you did, defending God from all attacks because I was unwilling to even consider that He could be false. But then I realized that believers in other religions did the exact same thing, and there was no reason to see my own beliefs are being more logical or rational than their beliefs. That is why I'm trying to get you to understand that a Muslim's beliefs, even if you don't understand their point of view, is based upon this same system of simply assuming the conclusion and arguing against every attack on it by saying that it disagrees with their holy book and what they know from personal experience.

You simply don't understand. I am not saying that you want to disobey God but that you choose not to obey him. Many Christians fall into this same problem just as you have stated. They, just like you, are destroyed by the sin in their lives that leads them to ignorance of the truth and belief in imaginations instead. It is very difficult for people to understand that being 2000 years out from the onset of Christianity there is more error than truth within the church. Most likely you bought into error when you were part of it all and therefore easily became consistent within yourself and walked away from a lie that someone taught you and you believed. I counsel men in their faith on a regular basis and remove the heresy that consistently blocks them from a true relationship with God. I watch as they continue to grow in their faith daily. And I find that the truth that is in Gods Word never fails to accomplish what is intended to do. To some it is a simple conviction that ends in judgment but to others it becomes a wellspring of life that brings them into a deep meaningful relationship with the one who created them. I understand your not interested in that but only interested in disproving what I say is true. You reap what you sew.

As you read what I have written, I understand that through skepticism your not going to receive me as one who possesses the truth but merely as another one who claims he has the truth. But what then is the use of continuing to reply unto my posts? Have you not figured out that it is useless to try to bring me to a belief that there is no God as God has indeed revealed himself unto me. I live my life as seeing him who is invisible as he sovereignly reigns over the creation around me. And if I am right, I know God. And if I am wrong, then there is a serious mental deficiency within me that does not allow me to process truth. I believe the earlier to be true of course. If you haven't tried it before, I suggest seeking God through strict obedience to his Word and watch as the revelation truly unfolds before you daily. Or you can continue to simply understand the physical world around you by your limited capacity to have truth outside of God who is truth.

Gary
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25-05-2012, 08:10 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Well, if you are here to convert me, obviously that won't work. It won't work on any of the others here, either.

But if you are here to explore, then you needn't give up conversation because one area of disagreement is established. You also just say that I don't see why the cruelties in the first testament were necessary. Well, why were they? Or will I be unable to understand that, too?

Many atheist forums would not allow you to post here, but here people like to think about things, and that is why we are having conversations with you. Granted, a lot of this goes in circles, but so do a lot of explorations before one gets to a point of discovery of something new - a new way of looking at things maybe.



Quote: They, just like you, are destroyed by the sin in their lives that leads them to ignorance of the truth and belief in imaginations instead.
I think I am pretty free of sins, my worst digressions are the overindulgence in chocolate at times. Certainly that is no cause to go to hell.

When I was catholic as a kid, we had to go to confession every Wednesday. Most of the time I would scramble to find something to confess, eventually I just made things up. Then I had something to confess, namely that I lied during confession. The third time I did that, the priest got mad and I was on my knees praying the rosary all afternoon and could barely stand after that. From then on I just made things up during confession and never confessed the lies. I suppose that made me a horrible sinner, but I sure didn't know what else to do.

I always wondered what all the evil things were that kids do every week so they have things to confess.

Or what the little old ladies did that was so sinful. Did they lust after their neighbor? Did they murder someone? Were they thieves? Just what command did they break on a weekly basis?

I can't fathom to this day. So tell me please, what are the sinful things in our lives? Am I just missing out on something everyone does? Soon I will be a little old lady myself, and I still don't know how they sin.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-05-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(25-05-2012 08:10 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, if you are here to convert me, obviously that won't work.

There ya have it. We are both content where we are at. I am not interested in becoming an atheist and you have no interest in pursuing God. I won't bother with the rest of your post as it cannot amount to anything since your closed. Any others who have no interest in exploring the possibility of God, the God I serve, need not waste time with me either.

Gary
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25-05-2012, 09:27 PM
RE: So Why Not?
If you come to an atheist forum to convert them to your religion, you're going to have a bad time,

Evolve
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25-05-2012, 09:57 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Hmmm... It's kinda funny, but I think that Christians come into forums like these expecting that the atheists they find will be nothing more than rebellious teens fighting with their parents about going to church. I don't think the average Christian evangelistic type expects the level of intelligent thought that most people on forums like these have put into their lack of belief. When they encounter such reasoning and logic and comfort in that lack of belief they start talking about lost souls and being closed minded... I always found that funny, that they find anyone who will not accept the fairy tales as truth to be closed minded.
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25-05-2012, 10:27 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Ok, you ask Why not?

I'll ask why?

You ask to understand why we hate, your God.

I'll ask how can you love him.

I'll ask if you get that we dont believe he exists, dont see any need for his existance and given his nature in "his" own self promoting literature, why we'd have any desire for his existence.

I'll go further, even if, and yes there is a possability that, he does exist why on earth would I support him. And Im not saying this to be contary to your request in your opening post, Im not "hating" on your God, Im standing in direct opposition to his morals, his actions and the very idea that tyrants who self aggrandise there attrocities deserve anything, but condemnation, scorn and opposition.

So perhaps, I'll even ask not how can you love, but how can you condone, justify, approve or ignore?

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