So Why Not?
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06-04-2012, 06:12 PM
RE: So Why Not?
Hate? Isn't even in my vocabulary.

The christian god? The one in the old testament is an exeedingly cruel being. Genocide, infanticide, slavery, rape, abduction, he orders it done. Over and over again. Hitler was a sweetheart compared to him.

Anger and jealousy - he displays it constantly. Not very nice attributes, no?

He rules by fear - we even still have the term "god fearing". It's like people can't be decent of their own volition, they have to be shaking in their boots to have the motivation to do the right thing. And that seems to also be the attitude that christians have towards atheirst and believers in other religions - they have to be evil and live without morals, why - because they have nothing to fear? That's just sad!

He also rules by promising something that no one can ever come and collect - eternal life. But, not one of us will ever be able to say if it exists or not.

In real life, he doesn't reward his followers with anything at all. They live and suffer just like anyone else. Difference is that if I am in a car accident and lose a leg, I will say "shit, what am I supposed to do now - get a prosthesis guess". The believer will say "praise the Lord for not severing my head instead of my leg". How does this make any sense? Why would he mutilate his chosen people? He does it on a daily basis.

So, I don't hate the christian god because I don't believe he exists. He is just an old tale I think, a tale that was extremely useful back in those days because it assured people that their fellow believers would play by the rules and not steal their food and their wife and kill them. It was a measure of safety in a hostile world. It was law in a lawless chaotic environment. It made sense to have people scared of breaking this god's laws. There is nothing to hate there. These times were primitive.

So, no, I don't hate him, I just wouldn't like him if he were actually in existance. So if he were in existance, I would most certainly not worship him. He doesn't deserve it, he is a nasty being. If he is truly omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, he is responsible for everything. He is responsible for floods and hurricanes and nuclear spills and concentration camps and thousands of years of human suffering. Why would a god do such horrific things to his own creation? Why would he create people just to destroy them in agony? Why bothering to create all this when he already knows the outcome?

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-05-2012, 08:38 AM
RE: So Why Not?
Dom, So you believe that if there is a God that he is cruel and even if it is proven that he exists you wouldn't worship him. OK, thats ok with me cause I believe that there are people in this world that wouldn't believe in God no matter what. I believe that if God came down and stood in front of some people they would still deny him. He talked about that in the bible. But if you look at history it was not only the "professed" christians that committed atrocities. The communists, who are atheists, also committed atrocities. All through history people of every race and creed have done horrible things. The blacks even enslaved their own kind. I'm a Christian and when people ask me why I believe I tell them because I choose to. Why can't atheists do the same? If you are content in your beliefs and feel like you are doing the right thing then why do you want to fight against the christians? Just tell people you are an theist because you choose to be. then you would be free to have really good conversations with people who believe differently.
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22-05-2012, 08:40 AM
RE: So Why Not?
Hi freedom. I'll use a comic to explain my stance.
[Image: 1.png]

[Image: 2.png]

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22-05-2012, 08:45 AM
RE: So Why Not?
^^Now that explains why I hate Algebra so much.

Good leadership is so important. Dodgy
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22-05-2012, 09:52 AM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2012 09:55 AM by Dom.)
RE: So Why Not?
(21-05-2012 08:38 AM)freedom Wrote:  Dom, So you believe that if there is a God that he is cruel and even if it is proven that he exists you wouldn't worship him. OK, thats ok with me cause I believe that there are people in this world that wouldn't believe in God no matter what. I believe that if God came down and stood in front of some people they would still deny him. He talked about that in the bible. But if you look at history it was not only the "professed" christians that committed atrocities. The communists, who are atheists, also committed atrocities. All through history people of every race and creed have done horrible things. The blacks even enslaved their own kind. I'm a Christian and when people ask me why I believe I tell them because I choose to. Why can't atheists do the same? If you are content in your beliefs and feel like you are doing the right thing then why do you want to fight against the christians? Just tell people you are an theist because you choose to be. then you would be free to have really good conversations with people who believe differently.


If god came down and stood in front of me I would ask him what the heck he was thinking when he created all that misery and made people warlike and cruel.

I am not fighting against anyone, where do you get that from? Fighting is exactly why I do not like the god you say exists. He is a war monger, the old testament is full of him making people kill other people, kill babies, kill animals,commit genocide, nothing is safe from him.

I don't choose to be an atheist. I just don't believe in all these tales that were written by people who never actually saw what happened, and we don't even know who they are, and the stuff was written a couple centuries after things happened. Humans can't keep a story straight if it is passed along among 10 people. Passed down verbally for two centuries, and then later edited by officials of the church, how much truth can there be left? I can't possibly "choose to believe" that stuff. Just like you can't choose to believe in the tooth fairy.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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22-05-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: So Why Not?
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?
Before we go any further, I want you to clarify this statement. Are you insinuating that "fact" is stronger than "theory" in science?

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22-05-2012, 03:45 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(22-05-2012 10:21 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?
Before we go any further, I want you to clarify this statement. Are you insinuating that "fact" is stronger than "theory" in science?
Are you trying to pick apart my question by looking for some weakness in my wording? I'm not here to debate the semantics of word usage. I would guess that you actually understand my point though.

Gary
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22-05-2012, 03:48 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  I have not spent any time discussing the topic of creation with atheists. I have questions. Please set aside if you will any disgust or hatred for organized religion or the God I believe in, if you have any, for the sake of discussion. Of course, this is merely a request and I understand if you cannot contain but feel you must unload the frustration you have upon this thread.

Why can't all that we currently know for fact (not unproven scientific theory) in science be explained by a god or deity who created all things with apparent age and natural laws governing their continued progression for his purposes?

I understand that there are many, who using logic, come to the conclusion that it isn't necessary to have a god or deity to explain what they see but my question is do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not possible?

Thanks in advance,

Gary

The question comes down to what is reasonable.
Logic is useless IMO. Theist have twisted it for years and said nothing.
Is it reasonable to believe that a creator god exists?
I think not.
Opinions differ.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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22-05-2012, 03:55 PM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2012 04:07 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: So Why Not?
(05-04-2012 07:17 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not possible?


Yes there is. The Big Bang was a Singularity. Do you know what that means ?
And the real question is not "why not", The question is "why". A god is totally unnecessary. The Principle of Least Surprise. (see hoc's Occam's Razor)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
A second question is "which god" ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Political skeptic .. if there is a bad reason something bad might have happened, you can bet your ass, that's why it happened.
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22-05-2012, 04:17 PM
RE: So Why Not?
(22-05-2012 03:45 PM)gdemoss Wrote:  
(22-05-2012 10:21 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Before we go any further, I want you to clarify this statement. Are you insinuating that "fact" is stronger than "theory" in science?
Are you trying to pick apart my question by looking for some weakness in my wording? I'm not here to debate the semantics of word usage. I would guess that you actually understand my point though.

Gary
Semantics matter a great deal in the case of the usage of the word "theory" in a debate that involves science vs theism.

Because in Science, a THEORY holds far more weight than a fact. In fact, a scientific THEORY is STRONGER than fact.

So this isn't a simple matter of semantics. It is entirely relevant. If you do not agree with this definition and usage, then frankly I can't continue a conversation with you.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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